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Thread: Is Art a Waste of Time

  1. #21
    Otaku Mod Infamous MiyobiKumagawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoudAndAnnoying View Post
    And again, the "it is because I say so" argument. Straight up open with "Anime is a form of art no matter how you look at it." What in that explains what makes it art? Nothing, again you just say so and expect me to suddenly believe something that is obviously wrong.

    You then try to trick me by saying I may as well say video games aren't art, expecting that I as a player will want to be pretentious and claim my hobby as artistic. Video games are not art, they are games, an entirely different form of entertainment. Is monopoly art? No, it's this thing called a game. Is baseball art? No. It's a game, it's a sport. Maybe you could say video games are sports, Esports, but they are not art.
    It's art because it's creativity. It's part of the creativity that makes it art. Again did I say I said so?

    Anime is a form of art, no matter how you look at it.
    I only say this because it literally is art. Anime is art because the amount of work was taken to bring the world to life. Art is creativity to bring pictures to life on a canvas. Both are art forms in their own righteous way.

    Video games is an art because of how the world comes to life and the amount of effort placed into it to do so. To deny that video games and anime isn't art is to deny those that had the passion to bring their work into life.

    Quote from Miyazaki:

    The creation of a single world comes from a huge number of fragments and chaos.
    Last edited by MiyobiKumagawa; 09-29-2015 at 03:23 PM.
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    Senior Member Honoured LoudAndAnnoying's Avatar
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    Right, my hand hurts from having a cyst popped in it, so I'm just going to reiterate the question, is baseball art? You didn't answer. Games aren't art and I'll say more latter.

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    Otaku Mod Infamous MiyobiKumagawa's Avatar
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    This video will speak for itself:

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    With how much goes into designing, working, and fixing in Video Games I'd say its definitely an art form of its own.

    Hell look at Pokemon, Generation 1 had simple looks, Generation 2 had some coloring and small tweaks of movement, Generation 3 had big color, animation on Pokemon, and the first cinematic event of the series, Generation 4 had detailed sprites, bigger movements, and tons of different designs in areas, Generation 5 had constant-moving animations of the Pokemon sprites, and now Generation 6 involves 3D animation, move animation, and still uses original PC sprites for collection in Pokedex's.
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    Senior Member Infamous Shaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoudAndAnnoying View Post
    Explaining details, and having to explain the art in general are two different things, if someone doesn't get a little detail, okay, if people don't understand it at all, bad art. Art is probably best defined as a way of conveying a message or emotion, failure to do so, is bad art.

    And you know what, expressionists are pretty much terrible for the most part.
    Explaining details... WHAT? Expressionist didn't explain detail; they explained the whole movement. No art movement simply "explained details" the always had to explain the art in some it was easier to see than in others. Expressionist tried to capture a fleeting moment, but the academics didn't know that, they just saw a sketch or underpainting. While in Dada, was about making everything useless, which is a lot easier to see in the work compared to expressionism or say cubism which was always about form. Hell symbolism has to be explained no matter how you look at it. Hell the very idea behind that whole movement was a seperation of storytelling which left nothing but a guessing game, and synthesism... I'll just stop there.
    Quote Originally Posted by LoudAndAnnoying View Post
    So you again say it's art, no backing argument or reason, just "it's art, someone said so" and expect me to believe it's art; It's not.

    It's always hipster bullshit, if you like it it means you're a hipster. Anime is just strange looking cartoons, often lacking in quality. You know, I never head that the Simpsons is art, never once. Now anime, it's art, what's the difference, they are pretentious and say it's art.

    You see unlike you and your "it is cause I say so" argument, I have an example, of something which anime is analogous to, that is not considered art, and until you can show me what makes anime special, it's not art.
    Secondly anime IS art, why? Because is a visual representation of form! The same way figure drawing, illustration, and cartoons are ALL ART FORMS. Why makes spirited away, grave of the fireflies, or nausicaa and the valley of the wind any less art than The Lion King, Pocahontas, or Cinderella? If style us you're argument. Then nocturna, the secret of kells, or toy story also can't be considered art due to how they are being visually represented.

    You've stated yourself there is bad art, but not all anime is good art just like not all cartoons are good art, would I call Simpsons good art? No, but not because of design alone! You name drop Simpsons, but Simpsons is a artform known as animation; it combines various forms of art; storytelling, acting, music, illustration. Calling the Simpsons art would be an insult to cartoons like batman the animated sseries (1992) which is considered art because it meld and blend all these elements together splendidly, the same way cowboy bebop is art because it does the exact same thing with the elements.

    Edit;

    also I read all your post, you claimed Myobi gave no reason why anime is art besides "I say do," while you gave no real reason why it isn't. You simply insulted it, indirectly insulted anyone who likes it, and directly insulted Myobi for viewing it as art.
    Last edited by Shaman; 09-29-2015 at 05:17 PM.

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    Forum Moderator Honoured AlexError's Avatar
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    My father and auntie had a similar talk with me… well, that went more along the lines of; “You don’t make any real money in art until after you die; unless you are a draft artist that is.” I spend who knows how long trying to help them see past that miss conception on ART and how they are mostly thinking about art on the level of Fine Art Painters and how I was working to be a visual illustrator. I’m not trying to sit in a gallery and sell painting, I’m not against it thought…obviously. I would rather sell my skill, not my art in general.
    I'd like to expand on why this is. Things like art, drawing, creative writing, reports, music, etc. are being rapidly automated to the point where sophisticated computer algorithms can chug out multiple orders of magnitude more than any amount of humans can. Creative labour is fast becoming a machine monopolised business due to artificial intelligence and machine learning.

    This brings a few consequences to the creative arts sectors. The artists, directors, musicians and reporters who make a living is a virtually insignificant proportion of all labour in general. You cannot have a music and art based economy. They are professions based on popularity, and following the models proposed by mathematical sociology, only a small portion of the population can be employed into popularity based careers. We see that in theory and we see that in practice; they will always be a small area in the economy.

    An already tiny and decreasing sector is being squeezed further; why would I want to hire someone who draws pictures when I can have a computer do it for me, for free, forever, with no cost, and most certainly a higher quality? This inevitability of the computerisation of creativity has been seen before. In history, we have assumed things like mathematics, board games, card games and communication/translation were human traits that could not be automated. Yet, they were, and music composition, art and creative writing are either soon to follow or already happening now.

    So simply due to lack of demand and abundance of supply, it is considered foolhardy to pursue a career in the creative arts. But that doesn't make it a waste of time, otherwise we would not have bothered to automate it. Art is never a waste of time, it's just it is incredibly difficult to live off of.
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    Senior Member Honoured LoudAndAnnoying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiyobiKumagawa View Post
    It's art because it's creativity. It's part of the creativity that makes it art. Again did I say I said so?



    I only say this because it literally is art. Anime is art because the amount of work was taken to bring the world to life. Art is creativity to bring pictures to life on a canvas. Both are art forms in their own righteous way.

    Video games is an art because of how the world comes to life and the amount of effort placed into it to do so. To deny that video games and anime isn't art is to deny those that had the passion to bring their work into life.

    Quote from Miyazaki:
    You say art is about creativity, at that anime is creative and therefor art, anime is defined by what it does the same as other anime, what it copies, what is not original. By your definition no format can be art as a rule, as it would be the things it does that go against what is normal that make it art. So according to this, some anime could be art, or probably not. Though I'd add in reality, no it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyobiKumagawa View Post
    This video will speak for itself:
    No it won't because I won't click on it. I'm done talking to you if you're just going to regurgitate other peoples opinions back out without thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicFighter View Post
    With how much goes into designing, working, and fixing in Video Games I'd say its definitely an art form of its own.
    Art does not equal work. It's closer to science, or engineering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    Explaining details... WHAT? Expressionist didn't explain detail; they explained the whole movement. No art movement simply "explained details" the always had to explain the art in some it was easier to see than in others. Expressionist tried to capture a fleeting moment, but the academics didn't know that, they just saw a sketch or underpainting. While in Dada, was about making everything useless, which is a lot easier to see in the work compared to expressionism or say cubism which was always about form. Hell symbolism has to be explained no matter how you look at it. Hell the very idea behind that whole movement was a seperation of storytelling which left nothing but a guessing game, and synthesism... I'll just stop there.

    Secondly anime IS art, why? Because is a visual representation of form! The same way figure drawing, illustration, and cartoons are ALL ART FORMS. Why makes spirited away, grave of the fireflies, or nausicaa and the valley of the wind any less art than The Lion King, Pocahontas, or Cinderella? If style us you're argument. Then nocturna, the secret of kells, or toy story also can't be considered art due to how they are being visually represented.

    You've stated yourself there is bad art, but not all anime is good art just like not all cartoons are good art, would I call Simpsons good art? No, but not because of design alone! You name drop Simpsons, but Simpsons is a artform known as animation; it combines various forms of art; storytelling, acting, music, illustration. Calling the Simpsons art would be an insult to cartoons like batman the animated sseries (1992) which is considered art because it meld and blend all these elements together splendidly, the same way cowboy bebop is art because it does the exact same thing with the elements.

    Edit;

    also I read all your post, you claimed Myobi gave no reason why anime is art besides "I say do," while you gave no real reason why it isn't. You simply insulted it, indirectly insulted anyone who likes it, and directly insulted Myobi for viewing it as art.
    When I was a child, and I tried to draw, or sculpt out of clay, or whatever, and it was awful, and it looked like crap, and some asshole said, "Oh that's cute, what is it?" thinking they're being nice when they're saying they can't even identify this horrid little blob, I'd feel pretty shitty. When expressionists draw something, and no one can tell what the hell it is, they have the fucking audacity to say it's everyone else' fault. "They just don't get it." they blame everyone else in the world, because their art doesn't convey the message it's supposed to, because it's BAD.

    It doesn't convey a fleeting moment, if it did, I'd look at it and be reminded of a fleeting moment, saying I'm too dumb or narrow minded when you fail, just makes you an asshole, not an artist.

    And now you say art is representation in visual form? It keeps changing what art is! How does it do that? Is it magic maybe? I don't know, the definition, you look at it one minute and it's creativity, blink and it's expression. No wait, what? look again, what is it now, representation in visual form! But wait what's it now? Whatever the fuck is convenient!!! Hurray! there it is, everybody come and see the miracle, art defined, "whatever the fuck is convenient!"

    And you know what? It's still wrong. Even if that was the definition you gave previously. Have you ever seen an illustration, in a manual, or instructions, and thought, "Oh, that's art." No. Is it a visual representation of form? Yes it is! But a picture of a lawnmower with directions, is not art!



    EDIT: @alexerror
    Machine is no equal to man, machines can process, store, and repeat information with amazing efficiency. But no machine is truly intelligent, they lack the ability to create new information, change, or grow.

    Thus they cannot be as creative as humans.

    Don't expect to live to see truly intelligent artificial intelligence, it's a long way off.
    Last edited by LoudAndAnnoying; 09-29-2015 at 06:59 PM.

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    Forum Moderator Honoured AlexError's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoudAndAnnoying View Post

    EDIT: @alexerror
    Machine is no equal to man, machines can process, store, and repeat information with amazing efficiency. But no machine is truly intelligent, they lack the ability to create new information, change, or grow.

    Thus they cannot be as creative as humans.

    Don't expect to live to see truly intelligent artificial intelligence, it's a long way off.
    Artificial intelligence and machine learning is much more advanced than you would think. They learn by themselves at a incredibly rapid rate. You cannot assume the human mind is somehow miraculously creative. It has been proven uncountably times that it is not. Once again it comes to how machines can do anything we consider 'creative' better than we can do, faster than we can do and with less flaws than us.

    You probably read more articles that are written by AI than are not. Music is being composed by machines, so is art and graphics.
    Last edited by AlexError; 09-29-2015 at 07:11 PM.
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    Senior Member Prestigious VarenWolf's Avatar
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    wrong thread XD
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    First of all, art was necessary for all early scientists. If you look at the early works of da vinci, who was not an artist, his anatomical drawings are magnificent. Back then, you had to create your own diagrams and models. Art was integral to the onset of science and in some cases it is still important. The simplest modern example would be the textbook. Those pictures and diagrams are works of art yet also scientific.

    In regards to the progression of arts and how anything can be described as art. The same argument can be made for science. It started out as philosophy. Then it grew to involve natural observations and theoretical thought. Then it began diverging into specialized fields once the field grew big enough because no one could know its entierty. Similarly how there are many forms of art because there areany different mediums and techniques. Art encompasses a large field of information from traditional visual representations, auditory stimulation, literary representation and physical exression.

    The baseball example. Is baseball art? The answer is simple. It depends what your looking at. Is the image of a painted baseball player considered art while a beautiful throwing technique not given the same consideration? In my opinion, both are works of art for different reasons.

    While some may call art based solely on effort and interpretation, i would lile to point out that some works of art lack both. The example of the colorful lines being a good example. Art must mean something to the beholder. If it doesnt mean anything to you, then you are not affected. But im sure that if you see a mcdonald logo you will understand it even if no words are present. Similarly when considering sciences. Just because you dont understand quantem physics doesnt make it any less valid or real.

    Art is large and varied. But it exists and will always exost since it is everywhere.

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