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Thread: How can SMITE be balanced?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Honoured Sepherim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jithins View Post
    1) ADC's: They crit high damage and has strong lifesteal at the point its not for sustain but to just heal fully.
    That's why they are carries. You could say mages do too much damage in early stages, and do so in area as well! That is not a balance issue, it's a design decision: adcs are usually the key in late games, but they have to feed and be protected until then (that's why supports like me have to take care of them) and even in late game, if one of them is out of position he'll get killed pretty easily and quickly more often than not.

    2) Guardians are not tanky late game, if the game lasts long enough tanks are pretty much dead if they take a lot of damage
    Believe me, I'm a main suport player currently, and guardians can take in massive amounts of damage in late game. They can get in a fight against five people, take everyone's damage on to them, and still walk out alive while the rest of their team smashes the opponents. If that is not enough tanky, then I don't know what it is. And if you mean "they are not immortal" then, indeed, thankfully they are not. Just a note to make you think on it, in current meta, probably the most banned god is Athena and for good reasons.

    3) Hades is not a guardian, and should be changed to the role of mage
    Hades is a guardian in his own right, he's not a support. Not all guardians are good support, nor the only good supports are guardians. But certainly Hades doesn't belong in the same group as Poseidon, Isis, Ra, etc.

    4) ADC's should not have CC and a mobility move such as a dash or jump. (Including artemis' 2 that gives movement speed), they should be only for damage not take control of a fight.
    Sure, while we're at it, we could also add to them no skills, just a massive autoattack button that kills with one shot.
    Now, seriously, adc's are one of the weakest classes in the game together with mages, if you give each of them no way out of a fight you end up with a dead character time and time again. If you take away all their cc and all the mobility, etc. they would also be completely boring to play.

    5) hard CC should be for guardians/warriors, soft CC should be for other roles
    Again, I disagree. What sense would Anubis make without his stun? You would not only have to rework all the gods to fit this, you would have already modified the core of this game so much to make it hard to identify as Smite anymore. Smite has a lot of CC when compared to other games, its part of its identity. You may like it, you may not, but it is how it roles. And we're seeing new kinds of cc as time goes by, like Bellona's disarm, so I doubt the game will ever flow in the direction you pretend so, given how you took into major changes in all areas... you probably are playing the wrong game.

    6) towers need to buffed a little (increased attack speed), tower dive and getting killed is frustrating as well as watching the opposing player escaping with good chunk of health. my fix for this is: increased attack speed based on how many gods in the tower radius. This will effect the gameplay by making towers more dangerous like they should, not something that should be taken lightly, players often say "im just gonna dive him and kill him"
    Towers are fine, also. They are not supposed to be a "don't enter zone so my players can get in here and activate laugh while you look from outside helplessly". Towers have their mechanics, offer a certain help and damage to those inside it, and that is enough. Not all characters can dive and kill, not all of them can do so without dying as well, etc. That's part of the tools some gods (like Bastet) have in their arsenal. Improving towers would ruin the whole game in many senses, as well as weaken all those gods that need those tower kills in order to work properly.

    So, to su my opinions up on your ideas, I believe the game isn't as inbalanced as you suppose. Balance is certainly not perfect (great, as someone said), but it is pretty decent in its current state. The things you don't like are not balance issues (one God being OP) but whole core game mechanics, which suggests you either don't know how to handle them well enough (like knowing when you're safe under tower and when not) or you are playig a wrong game according to your game style preferences.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Honoured Sepherim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grilleds View Post
    Due to some truly terrible design decisions, this game is impossible to balance. I'll list a few of the biggest problems below:

    1. RNG not related to crit. Specifically Midguardian Mail and Sylvanus's passive. This is unbalanceable because results do not depend on player skill, and may or may not factor into an effective play purely by luck. Even crits have this problem, but they have been grandfathered in.
    Luck is a factor in some game mechanics, thus you accept that chance may impact your game when you obtain those items. That is not balanced or unbalanced per se, it would be balanced or unbalanced if those objects were too expensive or too cheap due to that luck factor, but I don't think that's your argument.

    2. Too much CC focus. This game takes CC way too far. To the extent almost the entire game is "balanced" (and I use the term loosely here) around it. It's to the extent that purification beads is almost considered mandatory if you don't have another 2 actives you desperately need, and no matter how much they nerf Magi's Blessing, it's going to be crucial at times just to manage the ridiculous CC. Fights often turn into a huge CC fest where one character gets locked down by multiple CC attacks until they die with no ability to fight back, and gods without hard CC are of questionable effectiveness unless they have something else overpowering in their kit to make up for it. Other MOBA's usually balance this by only giving some characters hard CC, and usually only 1 CC skill in their entire kit, with entire classes of characters almost completely lacking in it. Often characters with good CC skills in other MOBA's tend to have major weaknesses to balance it out as well.
    Smite is not other MOBAs, and part of the specificity of Smite is its CC, one of the core elements in the game like LoL focuses on different ways to see through the map. You may like it, you may not, but it is a strong part of what Smite is.

    3.Undetectable invisibility. Seriously? Only Hou Yi has any ability to detect invisible gods? Because of this, invisibility is an unbalancable gimmick. Characters like Loki are always going to be either overpowered, or very bad, soley because they have to be balanced around an uncounterable gimmick in their kit.
    No invisibility is undetectable, most of them make sounds when they are activated and have short times. You can very well take precautions against them. If you make invisibility detectable you would basically be ruining a good number of gods for no good reason. Learn to play against them, pay attention to sound, and you should have no problem.

    4.Too much mobility provided by skills. Thor, Ratatoskr, Apollo, Athena, etc. When a character is able to press a button to cover a huge stretch of the map in a very short span of time, bypassing wards in the process. It limits counterplay, and limited counterplay is bad for balance. Not just ultimates either. The ridiculous amount of mobility skills in the game is like the overabundance of CC in that it hugely limits what can make for a viable kit because the person in the match without mobility skills is always going to stand out as the person who is most easily singled out and killed. There is just too much of them in this game.
    It doesn't limit counterplay, it changes the balances of fights. You know there is an Apollo in the enemy team, prepare for him. You know there's an Athena, count on her. Like CC, you are not focusing on a balance issue, you are focusing on a game mechanic which you may like or not, but is not inherently balanced or not. There are ways to counter that mobility, strategies that allow you to be prepared, etc. Just pay attention to the map and rotations, and learn to play safe when needed and push when it comes, and you can be ready for them.

    5.Too much rock paper scissors. Hard counters are taken too far, and I don't just mean matchups. Even the items lend themselves to making the game unbalancable. A good example is the ridiculous amount of anti-heal items, and then the gods with anti-heal abilities. When you design so many items and gods around countering specific other items and gods, balance becomes very conditional and divorced from player skill.
    Not at all divorced from player skill: learning to counter-build is player skill. I've seen players not take any anti-healing objects when they had an Aphrodite on the other side of their lane wrecking them. They didn't know those objects existed, didn't think them important or prefered to go with their usual builds. Objects exist to cover a wide range of options, to give versatility and adaptability once in game, you have to add to your skill list the counter-build one and, even in some cases, the counter-counter-build.
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  3. #23
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    After playing a bit of Elder Scrolls online, i wonder if a stamina mechanic being added may help balance or probably further complicate things... with all of the CC, have a "break free" consuming stamina along with sprinting, dodge rolling, and blocking. Along with this comes exhaustion from depleting one's stamina.

    Just a thought.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Prestigious Fênrîr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jithins View Post
    So I would love to know what you guys think Hi-Rez should do to balance the game. But here are some points that I think should be balanced

    1) ADC's: They crit high damage and has strong lifesteal at the point its not for sustain but to just heal fully.

    2) Guardians are not tanky late game, if the game lasts long enough tanks are pretty much dead if they take a lot of damage

    3) Hades is not a guardian, and should be changed to the role of mage

    4) ADC's should not have CC and a mobility move such as a dash or jump. (Including artemis' 2 that gives movement speed), they should be only for damage not take control of a fight

    5) hard CC should be for guardians/warriors, soft CC should be for other roles

    6) towers need to buffed a little (increased attack speed), tower dive and getting killed is frustrating as well as watching the opposing player escaping with good chunk of health. my fix for this is: increased attack speed based on how many gods in the tower radius. This will effect the gameplay by making towers more dangerous like they should, not something that should be taken lightly, players often say "im just gonna dive him and kill him"

    I would love to hear your guys thought on this, comment if theres something you agree with agree with, and if you think something should be added comment
    A lot of this is not as bad as you think it is.

    1 - Crit and Lifesteal are fine on it's own. The problem with hunters in the past and even now is that burst sustain should never be a thing on that role. I personally do not think lifesteal should work on critical strikes at least in as a percentage a flat heal with crits would be fine to combat the ridiculous healing values they can get sometimes.

    2 - Guardians should not be unkillable either. They are in a pretty good spot at the moment in terms of tankyness.

    3 - Hades is fine. He trades a bunch of tank and mage attributes for tons of versatility.

    4 - They should have one or the other. Not both.

    5 - I disagree. Guardians generally have more reliable CC when compared to other roles. Other roles like assassins need some sort of CC to lock a target down along with mobility.

    6 - You are there to protect your tower not the other way around. Towers are perfectly balanced how they are. Making them any stronger or tankier would just stagnate the game when it comes late game. I would rather not go back to impossible to push against mages late game.

    My only real issue with balance is mostly with newer gods having bloated kits. You make enough of those then it will get to the point there will never be a reason to play older gods over them.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Honoured Sepherim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fênrîr View Post
    A lot of this is not as bad as you think it is.

    1 - Crit and Lifesteal are fine on it's own. The problem with hunters in the past and even now is that burst sustain should never be a thing on that role. I personally do not think lifesteal should work on critical strikes at least in as a percentage a flat heal with crits would be fine to combat the ridiculous healing values they can get sometimes.
    Yeah, I agree that lifesteal shouldn't be based on effective damage but on base damage, so crits should not give you extra health.

    2 - Guardians should not be unkillable either. They are in a pretty good spot at the moment in terms of tankyness.
    Agreed, we're even seeing 2 and 3 guardians in teams currently. 3 may be excessive, but 2 guardians work very well.

    3 - Hades is fine. He trades a bunch of tank and mage attributes for tons of versatility.
    Agreed.

    4 - They should have one or the other. Not both.
    I disagree, but I've already made my point clear so I guess there's nothing new to add.

    5 - I disagree. Guardians generally have more reliable CC when compared to other roles. Other roles like assassins need some sort of CC to lock a target down along with mobility.
    Yes, and not only reliable but they are usually the ones that have area CC, rest of the characters are usually more one character-focused. Not all, of course, but it is a common trait. And also, hard cc on non-guardians is usually (not always) on ults, while guardians usually have plenty of cc in non-ult abilities as well.

    6 - You are there to protect your tower not the other way around. Towers are perfectly balanced how they are. Making them any stronger or tankier would just stagnate the game when it comes late game. I would rather not go back to impossible to push against mages late game.
    Couldn't have said it better, I agree wholeheartedly.

    My only real issue with balance is mostly with newer gods having bloated kits. You make enough of those then it will get to the point there will never be a reason to play older gods over them.
    Yeah, but I guess that's inevitable to a point. When designing them on paper they may seem well balanced and then, once put on servers and used massively they turn out differently. We'ves seen OP gods on release (Bellona was nerfed in the PTS!) but we've also seen very weak ones like Ravana. That's why they can't be played on leagues for the first month, while they are being tuned. So, while I agree with the idea, I don't think it can be avoided.
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    You know the Magi's nerf literally was the fault of one pro, the pro admitted this on Reddit stating him and other pros were complaining about the item for months. Let that sink in a bit.
    *Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios.*


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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPotato View Post
    It's going to eventually fall, so its never truly balanced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    It's going to eventually fall, so its never truly balanced.
    But it is balanced for now.
    **Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios.**

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    Senior Member Chosen Grilleds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sepherim View Post
    Luck is a factor in some game mechanics, thus you accept that chance may impact your game when you obtain those items. That is not balanced or unbalanced per se, it would be balanced or unbalanced if those objects were too expensive or too cheap due to that luck factor, but I don't think that's your argument.
    No, my argument is that you can't balance something around an unpredictable mechanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepherim View Post
    Smite is not other MOBAs, and part of the specificity of Smite is its CC, one of the core elements in the game like LoL focuses on different ways to see through the map. You may like it, you may not, but it is a strong part of what Smite is.
    Cool speech bro, but that doesn't really change anything about the fact that the CC focus of the game renders it pretty much unbalancable for the reasons I detailed and you ignored to instead irrelevantly gush about how Smite is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepherim View Post
    No invisibility is undetectable, most of them make sounds when they are activated and have short times. You can very well take precautions against them. If you make invisibility detectable you would basically be ruining a good number of gods for no good reason. Learn to play against them, pay attention to sound, and you should have no problem.
    You can detect when someone activates it, but not where they are, therefore yes it's undetectable. Also you missed my point. I wasn't asking for tips on how to beat Loki. I was pointing out why undetectable invisibility is unbalancable. Loki's actually an even more BS version of unbalancable because his ult is also undodgable (It's THEORETICALLY dodgable but good luck doing it on purpose). This can't be balanced the same way as in other MOBA's due to the undetectable aspect of it making combat something of a guessing game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepherim View Post
    It doesn't limit counterplay, it changes the balances of fights. You know there is an Apollo in the enemy team, prepare for him. You know there's an Athena, count on her. Like CC, you are not focusing on a balance issue, you are focusing on a game mechanic which you may like or not, but is not inherently balanced or not. There are ways to counter that mobility, strategies that allow you to be prepared, etc. Just pay attention to the map and rotations, and learn to play safe when needed and push when it comes, and you can be ready for them.
    Something having a counter doesn't mean it's balanced. This is something most of the forum fails to realize, and no, Thor, Apollo, and Ratatoskr's ults are not counterable unless you count either killing them during activation or making them waste it. You can play with their ultimate in mind, but that isn't the same as countering them, and the ridiculous initiation potential from a long distance they give mean that those characters effectively always have a game changer on hand if the player is skilled enough to make use of it. I doubt it's coincidence that every character I listed is considered either high or even top tier, and Athena has been considered top tier for... Actually I don't think there was ever a time she wasn't considered top tier. When you have characters with this level of mobility, it's pretty much an unbalancable gimmick. Either their stats will get nerfed to the point where their effective global presence does not make much of a difference, or their global presence pretty much let's them decide the game. Right now it's more the latter case.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sepherim View Post
    Not at all divorced from player skill: learning to counter-build is player skill. I've seen players not take any anti-healing objects when they had an Aphrodite on the other side of their lane wrecking them. They didn't know those objects existed, didn't think them important or prefered to go with their usual builds. Objects exist to cover a wide range of options, to give versatility and adaptability once in game, you have to add to your skill list the counter-build one and, even in some cases, the counter-counter-build.
    You've seen players without common sense. That isn't the same as player skill.

    Also you missed my point drastically. My point was these counter build items pretty much force rock paper scissors type gameplay (which as you ignored, I implied was the case even without these items). Depending on if they are built or not, you end up with a situation where either a character dominates or is rendered almost useless, and unfortunately at the moment I think those characters have been overnerfed to the point where they just plain don't dominate regardless, but that's a different discussion.

    The rock paper scissors issue isn't just counterbuilding. Some gods are pretty much only viable as counters to others. Odin for example is just plain not widely viable, but people largely ignore that because he does counter a few picks, particularly healers (as if healers don't have enough counters). He's not going to get buffed or nerfed in such a way that he's in-line with the rest of the game, because the nature of his ultimate and early game power spike means that quite frankly no matter how his stats are, he's going to be hard countered or hard counter someone himself in way too many matchups with even matchups being unlikely due to his predictable and counterable kit, and Odin isn't the only example I can think of. There are numerous other characters who have ridiculous rock paper scissors matchups.

    Probably an even better example is Loki vs Freya, which is a free win for Freya. You really can't balance this matchup due to Freya so inherently countering Loki's farming. No fudging numbers around is going to change that.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by as4mo3 View Post
    But it is balanced for now.
    Until the power creep happens and it falls like the twin towers... What, too soon?

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