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Thread: For Season 3 - Get Rid of Boots

  1. #21
    Member Worshipper RyuSenshi's Avatar
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    If boots are removed, then another item will rise and take their place. There is build diversity, it's just not much of a thing when it comes to Hunters and most Assassins and Mages.
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    Senior Member Infamous PapaRodin's Avatar
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    Boots being taken away would mostly be a tank buff imo.

    Hunters already build Fatalis instead of boots a lot atm. They would "just" get some free movement speed out of it, as everyone.

    Mages lack actually good damage Item options to really make use of such a change. Also, that early penetration would be missed.

    Assassins would be nerfed by this because they can't exploit the early lack of boots on most gods anymore while not gaining as much either.

    Warriors and Guardians though can fill that slot very nicely with added protection, HP and Utility, which there is plenty off, making them essencially even harder to kill, or more damaging. Or both.
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    Forum Moderator Honoured AlexError's Avatar
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    There is merit to removing all boots and varying an item slot - it's been suggested quite a few times.

    The issues that people usually throw out are:

    "Another item will replace them" - not necessarily, boots are overpowered for their price, and give a huge chunk of movement speed. Careful balancing would ensure the same problem does not occur.

    "It'll make lanes too fast" - not if movement speed scaled with levels; and especially with movement speed diminishing returns, scaling in the later game would be less effective than scaling in the early game. This essentially mimics what boots do.

    "Omg fatalis" - Fatalis does not suddenly provide more movement speed after removing boots. Little chunks of movement speed spread around on items like Soul Eater or Odysseus' Bow might compensate for the loss of speed too.

    "It would make scaling in the late game much scarier" - as oppose to boots? You're replacing one item with another; this does not affect the scaling of the game in a major way. You cannot replace the slot with a super expensive late game item; you have to build for the early game too!




    However, there still are issues with removing boots. Do we really need more diversity than 5 item slots? I think the main issue isn't that one slot is constrained to boots, but it is the mandatory crit items for hunters; power items for mages and aura items for tank supports. That's another topic though.
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  4. #24
    Member Worshipper SpitefulOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexError View Post
    However, there still are issues with removing boots. Do we really need more diversity than 5 item slots? I think the main issue isn't that one slot is constrained to boots, but it is the mandatory crit items for hunters; power items for mages and aura items for tank supports. That's another topic though.
    I don't think boots is what makes the item system so boring in Smite but I was aiming at a suggestion that I think would be doable and it does offer another slot for a flex pick item.

    I don't agree with the current design philosophy that items are just stat sticks that should merely amplify the kit of the God rather than items which can change how a God plays the game.

    I would like to see them look to Dawngate for some fun items that could change how the character could be played.

    They could also implement standardized pricing so that all tier 3 items had the same price so everyone's full build had the same value. Cheap defensive items are great but when the stats are so low that they evaporate against penetration items (and kit based penetration) late game, it makes defensive play feel unrewarding.

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    Senior Member Chosen TigrisCallidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpitefulOne View Post
    I would like to see them look to Dawngate for some fun items that could change how the character could be played.
    Dawngate died, for good reason, so let it rest.

    Also please make a distinction between normal penetration (which gets worse the more protection you have!)
    Or %penetration thats the only one actually countering protection.

    @Alex Error: None of your suggestions would make it possible for people to choose, when to get movementspeed!
    At the moment everyone might get that item, but for some people it is more important.
    Being faster than the enemy lets you get an early kill easier as a jungler/melee assasin.

    Or an extremely safe midlaner might get boots later, getting him bigger power midgame (more damage) etc.

    If you want build diversity more boots (and maybe more expensive boots as they were) would help much more.
    I mean as physical CDR is quite limited to get know, as is attackspeed as a magical god.

    So the movementspeed scaling with level would not lead to the same result.

    Also redoing the whole balance, just because there might be more item diversity? I mean when you look at hunter builds there is allready 0 even though they could chose 5 items freely (and from 4 shoes).


    Fatalis gives 10% movementspeed without 18% shoes this would make a lot bigger difference, especially since there were the diminishing returns.

    At the moment hastened fatalis only increased movementspeed by about 7% in comparison to not having it.
    Afterwards it would increase it by the whole 10% which would make it better.

    Also now you could build shoes and than the enemy could not build hastened fatalis as first item for infinite chase since you had more movementspeed until he also got shoes.

    I mean there are way to phew items in the game allready to make interesting build decisions, taking 4 away will not help.
    Addint more choice would be a lot better!
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    Member Worshipper SpitefulOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigrisCallidus View Post
    Dawngate died, for good reason, so let it rest.
    Dawngate didn't die because of a bad item system.

    You don't make any other points worth mentioning since this is all countered in other earlier posts or is off topic.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Chosen TigrisCallidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpitefulOne View Post
    Dawngate didn't die because of a bad item system.

    You don't make any other points worth mentioning since this is all countered in other earlier posts or is off topic.
    It died because it was a bad game. It was one of the worst things I played in my life... And seeking inspiration in failed stuff only makes sense, when it is exactly clear, why it failed. The item system may have been part of it.

    And I just answered to alex answers to "pseudo" arguments.

    Also your way of countering is just not reading what you dont like....

    Boots may be flawed, but removing them is just the wrong thing to do.

    Fact is there needs to be a DRASTIC change in movementspeed in the game, which has to happen at different times for different gods/situations.

    And the easiest way to provide this are boots.
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  8. #28
    Forum Moderator Honoured AlexError's Avatar
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    Highlighted the important stuff; snipped the rest out:
    Quote Originally Posted by TigrisCallidus View Post
    @Alex Error: None of your suggestions would make it possible for people to choose, when to get movementspeed!
    At the moment everyone might get that item, but for some people it is more important.
    Being faster than the enemy lets you get an early kill easier as a jungler/melee assasin. Or an extremely safe midlaner might get boots later, getting him bigger power midgame (more damage) etc.

    Fatalis gives 10% movementspeed without 18% shoes this would make a lot bigger difference, especially since there were the diminishing returns. At the moment hastened fatalis only increased movementspeed by about 7% in comparison to not having it.
    Afterwards it would increase it by the whole 10% which would make it better.

    I mean there are way to phew items in the game allready to make interesting build decisions, taking 4 away will not help.
    Addint more choice would be a lot better!
    I personally agree with giving more choice for boots, but for the sake of playing the devil's advocate, I'm going to be arguing for removing boots.

    We aren't removing movement speed; we're removing boots, and giving gods some scaling. Now, not all the movement speed is going to come from the scaling, but the movement speed stat is going to be saturated through items. Nominally, this will give mages more viability to get big power items if they need them, or assassins to build extra movement speed to begin with. By slowing the progression of increasing movement speed, the scaling has a big impact early on and less impact later due to DR and DE. This is essentially what boots are.

    Fatalis could be adjusted if needed. DR formula can be adjusted if needed. You're right to be sceptical about removing boots though - it's a huge chance with massive implications on balance.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Chosen Grilleds's Avatar
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    I'm going to be honest. If I have a good enough early game and I'm just dominating. I sometimes decide to rush another item instead of boots, and forget to buy them until endgame:
    http://smite.guru/match/hr/175044409
    Tends to annoy my clanmates. Way I see it. Medusa doesn't have feet. Why the heck would she need boots?

    Honestly I think we need to take a page out of LoL and Strife's book and add more boots, or at least boot enchantments. Boot's are quite frankly required due to every MOBA except SMNC's emphasis on movement speed, but our viable boot options at the moment are pretty limited.
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  10. #30
    Member Worshipper SpitefulOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grilleds View Post
    Honestly I think we need to take a page out of LoL and Strife's book and add more boots, or at least boot enchantments. Boot's are quite frankly required due to every MOBA except SMNC's emphasis on movement speed, but our viable boot options at the moment are pretty limited.
    The point isn't to remove all movement speed enhancing items. The point is to remove an item tree that's primary function is movement speed enhancement so that the items become functionally mandatory because of the value of movement speed.

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