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Thread: Learn 2 Think 4 Yourself 4 Once - PPS (Pro-Player Syndrome pt.2)

  1. #21
    Member Worshipper Soylent7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiyobiKumagawa View Post
    *Sigh* this logic is the same crap that was pulled when pros stated AMC was garbage and everyone agreed and then *gasp* a pro proved everyone wrong, but here's the problem there were players who knew AMC wasn't garbage before a pro picked him up.

    Duo Hunter lane was established before pros ever picked it up.

    Everything the pros did were done by regular players, but the problem is that pro-worshippers refused to acknowledge it unless Incon or Barracuda or someone else did it.

    Vulcan was viable long time ago before a pro picked him up.

    The "meta" was established by regular players that found a way to work the game the way that was comfortable for them. Not for you to standardize as this warped "meta" and have everyone do it.

    It has meaning, yes I acknowledge that, BUT it should not be a freakin presidential command that you have to do it to play the game.

    Whatever the pros do isn't bad, but they do it because it works for "them". Notice the keyword "them".
    Are you disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing or is there an actual point I've said that you disagree with.

    Take 1000 ideas from 1000 different people. You're going to have some good, some bad. How do you prove they're good or bad? One way is try them out. You can take those ideas and play them out, wheat from chaff so to speak, and see which ones rise above. Now, in the context of Smite, which would be the best proving ground for these ideas? Silver?(before you get defensive, I'm Silver too) or in pro play? Who will be better equipped to evaluate those finding? Silver player or pro player? Take your AMC example(I love AMC by the way). You're comparing it to someone blatantly stealing someones invention and selling it as their own when in reality it's more like the drunk guy at the end of the bar saying how back in high school he played with and was better than Russell Wilson.

    In the case of the dual hunter meta. I go Neith mid, you grown in Curse chat(we're using chat because pros have proven it's effective) and ask why? In response I could take more time than I have to figure out who did it first so I can mail them a gold star and give them my undying thanks or I could say just say the pros do it because it's been featured by quite a few teams in season 2.

    When you break it down to brass tacks. The results are the same, there is a meta that people adopt or reject. Now this meta changes and the best place to view those changes is at the pro level as they have the most time, skill and knowledge of the game. You're right though. No one is commanding you to play the meta but failing to realize why it is what it is and why it's the best(at the time) is either ignorant or stuborn.

    Honestly I think you're caught up on the wrong issue entirely. Your issue is people. People are nice, people are assholes. Sometimes nice people are assholes. Sometimes assholes can be nice. My guess is you encountered an asshole(s). Assholes tend to be assholes when something doesn't go their way and like to lay blame. Assholes hate taking credit when it comes to blame so it goes to you. They blame you and your build and said you should do it like the pros. Regardless if the blame has merit or not, they were assholes and instead of making an issue of combating assholes, you taken up your torch and pitchfork and made it about "because the pros do it".
    Last edited by Soylent7; 06-08-2015 at 04:34 PM.

  2. #22
    Otaku Mod Infamous MiyobiKumagawa's Avatar
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    I just want people to think for once on their feet. I'm not asking people to go to the moon because Lance Armstrong did it. I want them to experience their own gameplay that would exceed and counter the "pro" meta. The term "meta" was violated as soon as LoL started the e-sports scene and was corrupted under the notion that you have to build this and this.

    Forget about counter building, forget about counter champ picking, and forget about how you play.

    It pisses me off when I play in normal games and I can't go solo lane Guan Yu because some knuckle job joe wants me to play a Hunter because Warriors are trash. Guess what? I took their crappy warrior solo and rek'd lane. Hell, I even played Mercury against the solo Hunter lane and dominated because I excelled in knowing the enemy God's strength and weakness through my own experience. "My" high level play was due to me experimenting with builds and learning from experience from other skilled players in a practical environment. I don't watch pro's play, I watched two to three games from the SWC last year and was watching how the team comp worked with these teams.

    I may be Silver II, but he'll if I reach Diamond or Plat because I played my own strengths with the Gods I enjoy playing along with the builds I'm used to building then I can say I am a freakin pro.

    Also I'm trying to suggest to Hi Rez to not overly rely on pros because that's what destroyed LoL for me was every balance patch was based on Pro play. Champions that never needed nerfs or reworks were changed and thrown around as a joke because Pros played them out of the champion's environment.

    Warwick top - gone
    Annie support - not gone, but not played as much
    Nid top - gone
    Xerath rework - atrocious
    Urgot - trashed

    Every one of these champions were chucked in the garbage bin because pros played them the way they were supposed to be played.
    Last edited by MiyobiKumagawa; 06-08-2015 at 04:44 PM.
    *Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios.*


  3. #23
    Member Worshipper SpitefulOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiyobiKumagawa View Post
    I just want people to think for once on their feet. I'm not asking people to go to the moon because Lance Armstrong did it.
    Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. Lance Armstrong was engaged to Sheryl Crow and rides a bicycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyobiKumagawa View Post
    Also I'm trying to suggest to Hi Rez to not overly rely on pros because that's what destroyed LoL for me was every balance patch was based on Pro play. Champions that never needed nerfs or reworks were changed and thrown around as a joke because Pros played them out of the champion's environment.

    Warwick top - gone
    Annie support - not gone, but not played as much
    Nid top - gone
    Xerath rework - atrocious
    Urgot - trashed

    Every one of these champions were chucked in the garbage bin because pros played them the way they were supposed to be played.
    It must get really tiring carrying such a tremendous chip on your shoulder.

  4. #24
    Otaku Mod Infamous MiyobiKumagawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpitefulOne View Post
    Neil Armstrong walked on the moon. Lance Armstrong was engaged to Sheryl Crow and rides a bicycle.



    It must get really tiring carrying such a tremendous chip on your shoulder.
    Well I lose already because I fudged up the names.

    Nah, actually this is a great learning experience because it shows what not to do for balancing games. I've had this secret project for awhile I wanted to try out, but I need programmers and animators for it.
    *Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios.*


  5. #25
    Member Worshipper Soylent7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiyobiKumagawa View Post
    Forget about counter building, forget about counter champ picking, and forget about how you play.
    Do pros not counter build? Do they not counter pick? If someone doesn't counter build/pick isn't it safe to say that they didn't know the meta?



    It pisses me off when I play in normal games and I can't go solo lane Guan Yu because some knuckle job joe wants me to play a Hunter because Warriors are trash. Guess what? I took their crappy warrior solo and rek'd lane. Hell, I even played Mercury against the solo Hunter lane and dominated because I excelled in knowing the enemy God's strength and weakness through my own experience. "My" high level play was due to me experimenting with builds and learning from experience from other skilled players in a practical environment. I don't watch pro's play, I watched two to three games from the SWC last year and was watching how the team comp worked with these teams.
    I was going through an ADC phase when Xbal was all the rage a few months ago. People said I should pick Xbal instead of AMC or Cupid. I said I wasn't as good on Xbal as I was with AMC/Cupid. Now does that diminish Xbal in the meta? No, I knew very well Xbal was the bees knees, I just wasn't practiced on him. There are a lot of times I should go Ares or Sobek but I'm shite on them right now and until I get better, I'll have to settle for other supports. Again, to the pissing me off portion. You have a people problem. People will disagree with you for the rest of your life and unless you're Kim Jong un, you can't do much about it. Learn to deal with criticism(founded or unfounded) and move on.


    Also I'm trying to suggest to Hi Rez to not overly rely on pros because that's what destroyed LoL for me was every balance patch was based on Pro play. Champions that never needed nerfs or reworks were changed and thrown around as a joke because Pros played them out of the champion's environment.
    That's personal opinion. But as a business, I'm sure they have the best interest in their games health(good game=more money), same for Riot, I hear that game is doing well and I would venture to say its doing just as well with balancing around pro play. Does that diminish how you play? I think not, special, unique snowflakes can continue being just as they are despite the pros and despite what people say. Is it that you're looking for acceptance?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Honoured Miestana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiyobiKumagawa View Post
    Learning is fine and just going off the basics is fine, but blatantly just pure copying them and reasoning that the pros do it is just unexcusable.

    Again can people stop putting words in my mouth.

    Did I say anywhere in the post that I disliked the meta. No.

    I said I disliked the braindead groupies that don't know how to play the game and copy item to build because the pros said so.
    its kind of like my loki build. i was told that i was bad for not using transcendence because X player used it. but my build works perfectly for me...so i dont bother to listen to them.

  7. #27
    Otaku Mod Infamous MiyobiKumagawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soylent7 View Post
    Do pros not counter build? Do they not counter pick? If someone doesn't counter build/pick isn't it safe to say that they didn't know the meta?

    You'd be surprised how people shamelessly believe that there is only one build.

    I was going through an ADC phase when Xbal was all the rage a few months ago. People said I should pick Xbal instead of AMC or Cupid. I said I wasn't as good on Xbal as I was with AMC/Cupid. Now does that diminish Xbal in the meta? No, I knew very well Xbal was the bees knees, I just wasn't practiced on him. There are a lot of times I should go Ares or Sobek but I'm shite on them right now and until I get better, I'll have to settle for other supports. Again, to the pissing me off portion. You have a people problem. People will disagree with you for the rest of your life and unless you're Kim Jong un, you can't do much about it. Learn to deal with criticism(founded or unfounded) and move on.

    I have a slight people problem, but it doesn't mean I believe meta worshippers are complete idiots. It doesn't matter how you keep wording it, it's a problem in the community for people to tell you what to do. Granted I don't run into this issue, but I've brought this up due to Hi Rez consultation of pros.

    That's personal opinion. But as a business, I'm sure they have the best interest in their games health(good game=more money), same for Riot, I hear that game is doing well and I would venture to say its doing just as well with balancing around pro play. Does that diminish how you play? I think not, special, unique snowflakes can continue being just as they are despite the pros and despite what people say. Is it that you're looking for acceptance?

    I'm not looking for any acceptance. Not at all. You hear Riot is doing well which is true. In comparison to Smite and Riot, the reason why Riot is doing so well despite its horrible balance decisions regarding champions is due to excessive advertisements in the past and its age. You really haven't experienced Riot balance so you can't be for certain that their form of balance is acceptable. I've played the game for 3 years and played with people that ran through qualifying tournaments and they can tell you that Riot's balance around the pro meta is messed up.

    It's their opinion, yes. I find the decisions overall in Riots balance team one of the worst ways to balance a Moba which Smite is currently heading.

    You find it acceptable that the balance should be around pro play. I find balance acceptable through observation and non-biased decisions. We can only agree to disagree.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Prestigious Fênrîr's Avatar
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    Riot is doing well the same reason WoW/Blizzard is.
    Old games that got their foot in the door really early in the genre's life.

    If WoW was released 2-3 years later there would be a huge difference just like if Smite was released 2-3 years earlier.

    Also most people do not want to venture outside of their comfort zone. I know people who still play LoL and hate it but don't want to play anything else because they would rather stick with something they know even if it is awful.

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    Senior Member Chosen BlueFast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soylent7 View Post
    So...

    Saying "the pros do it" = bad
    No, saying "I'm doing this for the soul fact that the pros are doing it, but can't make up builds for my own, and my only reason for building is pros, and if you don't agree with pros, you're garbage" = bad.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Infamous Disquieted1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiyobiKumagawa View Post
    What is Pro-Player Syndrome?
    Pro player syndrome is a god awful form of hero worship and opinions based in the e-sports (electronic sports) scene that utilizes every single opinion and balance decision that pros have done in tournaments.

    My Opinion
    It's a dignified mess and I will point out why it's bad to follow pros at each and every turn. First off it's bandwagoning. Alright? I should have legal right to pull you by the ear and make you watch 1940's videos on "How to think on your own by Mark Twain" (Doesn't exist, but hell it should) or read Dante's Divine Parody. (The Church during those times lead to this book which basically meant anything you did was a sin because the Church had people living in fear of sinning.)

    Pro-players I do agree play the game and gain a better sentimental understanding than most when it comes to the Gods/Demi-Gods they play and the items they use, but what I can't stand is the stupidity of using them as the "They are always right" card.
    I agree 100%. Pros do what they do for a reason, and guess what? They thought of those reasons themselves, and thought of how to play, all by themselves. Pros don't follow anyone.

    I once was playing CSGO. My team lost the first round, so I asked to not buy on the second round so we would have enough money on the third. Nope. All four of my teammates used all their money. Why? "Because Ninjas in Pyjamas did it." They lost the round and we got fucked harder.

    Let me tell you a secret, okay?...

    Pro-players are not always right! Like humans they have their own opinions and like humans they are biased of their own opinions. Who and why the literal Donkey Kong does anyone follow their monkey droppings and lick it up like it's the most delicious thing in the world.

    Do you not have an opinion? Let me ask you again. Do you not have an opinion?

    Because if you don't then I should drag your IQ level of 34 back to elementary when they taught you the basics of teaching yourself how to tie your shoes.
    Nothing is more depressing than asking someone "what do you think about Bernie Sanders, a presidential candidate, and his plans to make college affordable for all young adults," and getting a blank stare and an "I don't know." No one has an opinion, no one has a brain. Well, they do have a brain, but barely enough to breathe and walk.
    Ya'll that follow pros I'm going to give you some advice. Take both strings, tie it in a knot, make bunny ears, and loop it around because it's time to make your own meta for once.

    The duo hunter meta was always there. If it's fun for you to play duo hunters then go for it. Why is your excuse, "Pros do it too." If I was a pro player and I told you to kick a goat from behind. Would you do it? No, I think it should be. Should you do it? The meta is this, "A compilation of characters and players that can make a team comp work and form a unity to which that team comp can work for the specific jobs given in the match."

    The meta doesn't mean "solo, mid, duo, and jungle." That's stale and boring. If you want to go down one level then it's:
    Solo = Warrior noob, but now it Hunter.
    Mid = Mage scrub, but now it Neith.
    Adc = Hunter Bronzie
    Support = Guardian Feeder
    Jungle = It always be Assassin, if you jungle Ymir den I reportz u lolz
    Smite is unique in that gods can play multiple roles. People don't get that. They think in the box -- no, they construct a box for themselves -- wait... they take the box that the pros have constructed, and forced all their thinking and all the possibilities within the box, limiting it to said box.

    ...

    What the literal monkey wrench school did you go to for those sentences?
    The world is run by idiots.
    Now my opinions are done. What are yours for Part 2 of Miyobi's Pro Player Syndrome.
    Quote from Reddit

    I was hesitant about posting this on Reddit, but I wanted to make a personal note to the Hi Rez balance team. Balance is a difficult concept and that's understandable. The community here is full of biased players which some attempt to contribute to the overall balance while others just plain refuse to accept change.

    My issue here is that due to recent events that I have taken notice. Pro-Players should not be your template for balance. Like people they have their own opinions on the matter and biased to said opinions depending who he/she is.

    Not only that, they have shown the inability to show professionalism in the face of criticism. If they cannot handle such issues then why are they arm-in-arm with the balance team that requires a good head and non-biased opinions? That is poor decision on terms of seeking help. There are people in this community that have good insight, but they are not pros.
    Basically you're calling out DMBrandon, and for good reason, he's a shitter.

    Don't alienate your community. They are here to enjoy your game and have fun.

    With this current patch, I won't say anything in regards to the attempts to cooldown the core of item builds, but side stepping the problem isn't going to help. Hunters became the Warriors of Smite, it was not as bad as the Warriors were before the nerf due to Hunters not having the extreme amount of stats that Warriors had. The problem this time lies in item builds of HS, Crit, and Lifesteal.

    If a pro suggested these balance changes to the core items then in my biased opinion the system is no better than LoL that have separate teams that balance champions using their own judgement with no communication between the team and the community. Many changes that happened there was due to biased opinions and it's sad to see Smite heading in this direction.

    My feeling is that the item changes were band aid fixes in attempt to keep hunters close to what they still are, but indirectly hurting the Warrior and Assassin roles. If your so called, "Pro-Advisors" suggested these then my gut feeling was "this person side stepped an issue to keep hunters as they are because they play hunters more than other roles."

    I may not know what happens behind the scene in the balance team, but so far the effort is just being wasted. I do not expect a response, just a consideration in position that the game is going through.

    In the Moba scene you either eat or get eaten. - MiyobiKumagawa
    I have to disagree here. The community should not be used to balance, but neither should the pros. Why?

    "Agni is balanced, his kit gives both good utility and good damage."

    "Anhur is jack shit, buff him now! He's worth nothing."
    Bias2stronk.
    Smite is an online multiplayer game. You can't have immediate gratification simply by starting the game. The ground is even. There's another player on the other side. You are not entitled to having everything favoring you at every time. If you don't like it, by all means, go back to the 1-shot-kills-all Aliens: Colonial Marines singleplayer.

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