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Thread: LOL at Ah Puch - #Devs this is why people hate smite.

  1. #41
    Senior Member Honoured BorneBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicFighter View Post
    It doesn't cover half the map in your game. It covers a small portion of the map. Get it right.

    And Joust 3v3 is irrelevant. The game is balanced around Conquest, not Joust.
    Well I still play joust because you know, I get bored. But I can't really argue with that, I am clearly over exaggerating so there's no point of saying that but it's still ridiculous. IDC anymore though, at least he got a nerf.

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    Senior Member Infamous Trubblegum's Avatar
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    After playing Puch (in Siege, Conquest, and Arena) I can state he is balanced.

    I can smell you all typing hateful comments right now, so let me elaborate.

    COMPARED TO OTHER GODS (I.E. Non-mages) he is quite balanced. 90% of non-mage gods eat him for dinner (because A. They're tanky or B. They're hunters/assassins), whereas mages take it up the butt. Mages, in this meta, are underwhelming. They only deal damage for a small amount of time, then the hypercarries come online. A mage, like AP, that isn't underwhelming? GET OUT YOUR PITCHFORKS!

    Granted, yes, he needs a nerf, but not as much as some people think.
    Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios.


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    Senior Member Prestigious RippleApple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicFighter View Post
    1.) Situational, but fine I can see that. Doesn't really mean much considering both just kill you if they hit their setup.
    Anubis's is harder to hit, as I've said, and you've responded somewhat to. Furthermore, Ah Puch's regular kit has a shorter cooldown than Anubis's ult. He's less bursty at the start of a teamfight, but Ah Puch can do more damage over time by continually hitting his abilities. That, and how he can safely stay so far in the back line means it's hard to actually deal with him. Whereas Anubis has to be fairly close to the enemy and stay still.

    2.) If Ah Puch is sustaining himself that means he is not throwing exploding dead people at you. Go on him while he is distracted.
    Yeah, but in a way this counters burst. If you use your whole kit on him and then he heals off creeps to recover from the damage, how are you meant to use a kit that's on cooldown to finish him off?

    4.) I can see where you are coming from with this one, but you have to take into consideration of the possibilities. Stun vs Slow, a stunned target can't move or react. A slowed target can move at a altered speed but still react. Both make damage afterwards easy to confirm. And Ah Puch is not the only god with skillshots that "you'd have to be blind to miss".
    True. But Ah Puch's has higher burst than... all of them, really. Whereas I think he needs his high burst to be helpful at all to his team and taking that away would make him completely worthless, demanding he have a brain to hit his abilities which do high burst is not asking much at all.

    5.) Anubis's ultimate is one of the best, if not the best ultimate for taking early objectives quickly. Death Gaze melts anything. Empty the Crypts while an excellent zoning tool, cannot burst the same way Anubis can. Both have very different purposes.
    Indeed, Ah Puch's ult is better on late-game objective battles. Anubis's is better in killing an enemy early. But think about that for a second: That means Anubis would necessarily have to play aggressively to take early towers specifically, which leaves him open to be ganked during the laning phase. Whereas Ah Puch, in order to take a tower late, has the protection of his team, similar to a Zeus. The difference between Ah Puch and Zeus is similar to the difference between Ah Puch and Anubis; Ah Puch's damage is more easily confirmed from a larger range.
    6.) Lots of gods are countered by beads, a lot of gods are countered by slow immunity as well. This argument is a bit moot.
    Let's say you buy hog as a solo lane warrior. You then buy heavenly agility or sprint 2 to counter Ah Puch ult. Well, now Athena can grab you and you'll get bursted down because you have no beads. Solution? Don't fight when Athena's taunt is up, meaning you would need to retreat from fights that you could otherwise win with beads.

    Overall, beads is just a better item than heavenly agility because it's not only useful on slows, it's not only useful on cooldowns and it's not only useful on hard cc, it's actually very helpful in stealing fire giant. In that everyone who thinks Ah Puch is balanced sees slows as inferior to stuns which they believe contributes to his level of balance, that point kind of drives itself home. In that you believe slows are inferior to stuns, you must therefore necessarily believe beads is a more useful item overall than heavenly agility, because what beads counters and what heavenly agility counters share a clear heirarchy of efficacy.

    7.) So some items are better fit for other gods. Very strong yes, but Gem is not going to be an item that is perfect for every mage.
    Almost every mage buys gem of iso, though. It's a very potent item.

    8.) Building more power on Ah Puch is not exactly the best thing to do. His overall scaling on his moves is weak. Building utility (Gem of Iso, Spear of the Magus) is more effective on Ah Puch rather than a burst-type mage build.
    I feel doing some number crunching at the moment, to find out whether this is true or not.

    Discounting their ults, because one is clearly utility and the other clearly damage, this is the scaling on their abilities at level 20:

    Ah Puch:
    1: 170 + 35% magical power
    2 (with 3 corpses from 1/3): 580 + 85% magical power
    3 (without enemy healing): 200 + 75% magical power

    Anubis:
    1: 570 + 240% (if all ticks hit)
    2: 340 + 140% (if all ticks hit)

    This is assuming neither target buys the correct item to counter them, and Ah Puch is not specifically countering the enemy god. In other words, Anubis's best situation and Ah Puch's worst situation.

    Assuming they buy the right item to counter them, winged blade:

    Ah Puch:
    1: 170 + 35% magical power
    2 (with 3 corpses from 1/3): 580 + 85% magical power
    3 (without enemy healing): 200 + 75% magical power

    Honestly, it's unchanged. Because it's impossible to miss by anyone with a single brain cell.

    Anubis, however... he'll maybe get 3 ticks off, maximum, if his enemy has beads.

    1: 285 + 120% (3 ticks)
    2: 255 + 95% (3 ticks)

    And assuming Ah Puch gets his completely full damage off (which will never happen), compared to Anubis WITH ult (keep in mind that Anubis can't cast his 1 and ult at the same time, so I can't add his 1 to the equation, which I think is reasonable)

    Ah Puch:
    1: 170 + 35% magical power
    2: 1060 + 160% magical power
    3: 800 + 175% magical power
    Ult: 480 + 60% magical power

    Total: 2510 + 430% magical power

    Anubis:
    3: 340 + 140% magical power
    Ult: 1290 + 450% magical power

    Total: 1630 + 590% magical power. Incidentally, adding in his full 1 after the fact, this becomes 2200 + 830% magical power.

    From this, we can surmise Ah Puch's ult does a paltry amount even if it hits every tick compared to his regular kit. And Anubis's overall burst is higher. But let's compare something unstated until now: Cooldowns. Going back to a prior comparison...

    Ah Puch:
    1: 170 + 35% magical power
    2 (with 3 corpses from 1/3): 580 + 85% magical power
    3 (without enemy healing): 200 + 75% magical power

    Anubis:
    1: 570 + 240% (if all ticks hit)
    2: 340 + 140% (if all ticks hit)

    We can assume that Anubis and Ah Puch's ults won't always be up. Let's compare their regular kits' cooldowns.

    Ah Puch's 1: 10 seconds cooldown. Less if he's using it to heal himself, which we'll assume he's not.
    Ah Puch's 2: 8 seconds cooldown.
    Ah Puch's 3: 10 seconds cooldown.

    Anubis's 1: At level 1, 15 seconds cooldown. At level 5, 11 seconds cooldown. Same whether he uses it to heal himself or not.
    Anubis's 2: At level 1, 18 seconds cooldown. At level 5, 14 seconds cooldown. (Pay attention to this)
    Anubis's 3: At level 1, 15 seconds cooldown. At level 5, 11 seconds cooldown.

    Anubis's 2 is of note. It's both the highest and most important. Why? Anubis will only ever get up to about 3 ticks on someone if he fires his abilities without his 2 up. In reality, it's the only skill that its cooldowns matters on. The same is true for Ah Puch's 1 and 3. The 2 does virtually nothing without those abilities up.

    That means Ah Puch can do 950 + 195% magical power in damage every 10 seconds or so (I'm aware of the small travel time of his skills, but we're ignoring that like we're ignoring Anubis's 2's wrap's travel time because the difference is very small).

    Anubis, on the other hand, does 910 + 380% every 14 seconds.

    Over the course of 70 seconds (Anubis's ult's cooldown at level 20), this means Ah Puch gets 7 casts, whereas Anubis gets 5. Ah Puch does 6650 + 1365% magical power (of course with 3 corpses each cast, it wouldn't make sense otherwise) before Anubis's ult comes back up. Anubis, on the other hand, does 4550 + 1900%. Adding the calculations for their possible damage at that point, it comes down to:

    Sustained damage:

    Ah Puch: 9160 + 1795%
    Anubis: 6750 + 2730%

    Just for fun, I did this for another god, checking them for their maximum potential damage:

    Vulcan, without his 2 because that thing can do 10000 damage by itself if you let it hit you continually:
    6130 + 1950%

    Overall, I wouldn't necessarily say Ah Puch's scaling is BAD, per se. He more or less matches Vulcan, if not completely surpasses him due to his base damage. He just can't out-burst the highest burst mage in the game.

    9.)
    Again, the items are there for everyone to use. Building something like a Winged Blade on a zero-mobility god is smart.
    It also means Anubis can't make the most of his scaling, whereas Ah Puch can buy it and his damage won't be as impacted.


    Ah Puch's damage is fine. It's just, it's too easy to hit his abilities. There's a reason why Vulcan's 3 was given a ground indicator; so he'd be a little easier to juke. Ah Puch deserves the same treatment. Remember that Vulcan's 1 is barely even an escape, so you can hardly say "Vulcan has an escape and Ah Puch doesn't." It's like half the size of a regular escape.
    Last edited by RippleApple; 05-29-2015 at 10:49 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Infamous Disquieted1's Avatar
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    I would make a rainbow post but I'm feeling drab today.

    Quote Originally Posted by BorneBlood View Post
    Everyone I know that plays league over smite thinks smite looks way better, but all have the same comments - the game has ridiculous skills and the balance needs tweaking. I don't really agree with the ridiculous skills for the most part and I always tell them it's not that bad, you can dodge, etc. but a few skills they've seen ARE pretty ridiculous that I can't really argue with.
    Out of all games I've played, including but not limited to League of Legends, CS:GO, and Eden Eternal (PvP), I'll tell you that Smite is one of the more balanced games on the market. True balance is impossible (because if that were so, all gods and items would have the same effect), and is not intended. That's why Smite has a meta.


    What the heck were you guys thinking when you put a 50 meter radius (literally) ulti that slows you down for 2 seconds per TICK and lasts for 8 seconds, also damaging you into the game? It, again, literally covers the entire joust 1 lane entirely for 8 seconds.

    Then Ah Puch has long range aoe skills to just wreck you.

    Seriously, 50 radius for 8 seconds with a slow??? LOL. The entire map is covered, and this is exactly why people see vids -> don't DL.
    Firstly: Joust is not the game mode the devs use to balance. They use Conquest. 50ft is a large radius, extending past the Fire Giant aggro radius, but it's nothing unmanagable. The damage is little as well. It has no cripples, only a slow, so it could be a lot worse.
    This is not me being salty. I still enjoy the game, and will still play. But what in the hell? Let's just say someone I was trying to convince play (currently plays league a lot) saw that ulti and just said "what?" and there was NO convincing left.

    But, anyway.

    There's no way he's not getting nerfed. My idea for the ulti itself only would be:

    Duration 8s->4/5 sec
    Keep the slow effect
    Decrease the radius by HALF, yes half, to 25. Or... make the length at least 30-40% smaller and the width about the same or less. Just.. shrink the ulti a bit and it's duration as well.
    If someone saw the ult, he'd think it's cool.
    If someone wins with the ult, he'd like it and play more.
    If someone loses against the ult, he comes to the Smite forums.

    As another poster wrote, he's getting nerfed already.
    Thank you for reading, again I didn't make this to whine, just a complaint.

    Serious question, what other gods do you think need a nerf (or certain skills) and what gods should be buffed?
    None. If any balancing was to be done, it's with items. The current itemization is heavily early game oriented -- hence why gods like Ne Zha, Nemesis and Mercury are not seen in the current scene. It's not the gods, it's the items.
    Smite is an online multiplayer game. You can't have immediate gratification simply by starting the game. The ground is even. There's another player on the other side. You are not entitled to having everything favoring you at every time. If you don't like it, by all means, go back to the 1-shot-kills-all Aliens: Colonial Marines singleplayer.

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    Senior Member Prestigious RippleApple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disquieted1 View Post
    Out of all games I've played, including but not limited to League of Legends, CS:GO, and Eden Eternal (PvP), I'll tell you that Smite is one of the more balanced games on the market. True balance is impossible (because if that were so, all gods and items would have the same effect), and is not intended. That's why Smite has a meta.
    There's a difference between symmetrical gameplay and balanced gameplay.

    Symmetrical gameplay: Everything has the same moveset and effect.
    Balanced gameplay: The player is able to perform to a similar level of efficacy with any character.

    True balance is difficult, but not impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trubblegum View Post

    COMPARED TO OTHER GODS (I.E. Non-mages) he is quite balanced.
    Yeah thats the point right there:
    He is stronger than (most) other mages, thats why ppl consider him OP.
    If you compare him to hunters or guardians, than a mage of his strength is actually perfectly balanced.

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    Senior Member Honoured BorneBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disquieted1 View Post

    If someone saw the ult, he'd think it's cool.
    If someone wins with the ult, he'd like it and play more.
    If someone loses against the ult, he comes to the Smite forums.



    As another poster wrote, he's getting nerfed already.

    None. If any balancing was to be done, it's with items. The current itemization is heavily early game oriented -- hence why gods like Ne Zha, Nemesis and Mercury are not seen in the current scene. It's not the gods, it's the items.
    No, if someone saw the ult he would come to the forums and say WTH IS THIS HIREZ, that's pretty much what I did. Thank god I don't get matchups with him too much he is the lamest god to exist in this game (in terms of skills. He is pretty badass).

    And I guess you're right for the second point about items being nerfed but if they do, do that, I'd just imagine a small crit / atk speed nerf, or something of that sort cuz most hunters rely on dps over def/hp clearly to their advantage and taking away too much dps would kill them.

    I never said the game was unbalanced though, just things like that ulti are honestly game breaking to some people, like I said that range/radius is extremely ridiculous, and it still does decent damage actually, you have to understand it's not just a defensive ulti you may get attacked while inside it.
    Last edited by BorneBlood; 05-30-2015 at 09:30 AM.

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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Noxae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BorneBlood View Post
    No, if someone saw the ult he would come to the forums and say WTH IS THIS HIREZ, that's pretty much what I did. Thank god I don't get matchups with him too much he is the lamest god to exist in this game (in terms of skills. He is pretty badass).

    And I guess you're right for the second point about items being nerfed but if they do, do that, I'd just imagine a small crit / atk speed nerf, or something of that sort cuz most hunters rely on dps over def/hp clearly to their advantage and taking away too much dps would kill them.

    I never said the game was unbalanced though, just things like that ulti are honestly game breaking to some people, like I said that range/radius is extremely ridiculous, and it still does decent damage actually, you have to understand it's not just a defensive ulti you may get attacked while inside it.
    I saw the ult. I walked out of it, and all was k.

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    Senior Member Infamous Trubblegum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OversizeT View Post
    Yeah thats the point right there:
    He is stronger than (most) other mages, thats why ppl consider him OP.
    If you compare him to hunters or guardians, than a mage of his strength is actually perfectly balanced.
    Basically:
    If you're not going to nerf him, buff other mages. Otherwise dont make them suffer until S3 when another Warrior meta comes rolling in and the only god that can do shit against them is AP.
    Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios.


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    Trash Doggo Demigod Goobis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RippleApple View Post
     


    Anubis's is harder to hit, as I've said, and you've responded somewhat to. Furthermore, Ah Puch's regular kit has a shorter cooldown than Anubis's ult. He's less bursty at the start of a teamfight, but Ah Puch can do more damage over time by continually hitting his abilities. That, and how he can safely stay so far in the back line means it's hard to actually deal with him. Whereas Anubis has to be fairly close to the enemy and stay still.



    Yeah, but in a way this counters burst. If you use your whole kit on him and then he heals off creeps to recover from the damage, how are you meant to use a kit that's on cooldown to finish him off?



    True. But Ah Puch's has higher burst than... all of them, really. Whereas I think he needs his high burst to be helpful at all to his team and taking that away would make him completely worthless, demanding he have a brain to hit his abilities which do high burst is not asking much at all.



    Indeed, Ah Puch's ult is better on late-game objective battles. Anubis's is better in killing an enemy early. But think about that for a second: That means Anubis would necessarily have to play aggressively to take early towers specifically, which leaves him open to be ganked during the laning phase. Whereas Ah Puch, in order to take a tower late, has the protection of his team, similar to a Zeus. The difference between Ah Puch and Zeus is similar to the difference between Ah Puch and Anubis; Ah Puch's damage is more easily confirmed from a larger range.


    Let's say you buy hog as a solo lane warrior. You then buy heavenly agility or sprint 2 to counter Ah Puch ult. Well, now Athena can grab you and you'll get bursted down because you have no beads. Solution? Don't fight when Athena's taunt is up, meaning you would need to retreat from fights that you could otherwise win with beads.

    Overall, beads is just a better item than heavenly agility because it's not only useful on slows, it's not only useful on cooldowns and it's not only useful on hard cc, it's actually very helpful in stealing fire giant. In that everyone who thinks Ah Puch is balanced sees slows as inferior to stuns which they believe contributes to his level of balance, that point kind of drives itself home. In that you believe slows are inferior to stuns, you must therefore necessarily believe beads is a more useful item overall than heavenly agility, because what beads counters and what heavenly agility counters share a clear heirarchy of efficacy.



    Almost every mage buys gem of iso, though. It's a very potent item.



    I feel doing some number crunching at the moment, to find out whether this is true or not.

    Discounting their ults, because one is clearly utility and the other clearly damage, this is the scaling on their abilities at level 20:

    Ah Puch:
    1: 170 + 35% magical power
    2 (with 3 corpses from 1/3): 580 + 85% magical power
    3 (without enemy healing): 200 + 75% magical power

    Anubis:
    1: 570 + 240% (if all ticks hit)
    2: 340 + 140% (if all ticks hit)

    This is assuming neither target buys the correct item to counter them, and Ah Puch is not specifically countering the enemy god. In other words, Anubis's best situation and Ah Puch's worst situation.

    Assuming they buy the right item to counter them, winged blade:

    Ah Puch:
    1: 170 + 35% magical power
    2 (with 3 corpses from 1/3): 580 + 85% magical power
    3 (without enemy healing): 200 + 75% magical power

    Honestly, it's unchanged. Because it's impossible to miss by anyone with a single brain cell.

    Anubis, however... he'll maybe get 3 ticks off, maximum, if his enemy has beads.

    1: 285 + 120% (3 ticks)
    2: 255 + 95% (3 ticks)

    And assuming Ah Puch gets his completely full damage off (which will never happen), compared to Anubis WITH ult (keep in mind that Anubis can't cast his 1 and ult at the same time, so I can't add his 1 to the equation, which I think is reasonable)

    Ah Puch:
    1: 170 + 35% magical power
    2: 1060 + 160% magical power
    3: 800 + 175% magical power
    Ult: 480 + 60% magical power

    Total: 2510 + 430% magical power

    Anubis:
    3: 340 + 140% magical power
    Ult: 1290 + 450% magical power

    Total: 1630 + 590% magical power. Incidentally, adding in his full 1 after the fact, this becomes 2200 + 830% magical power.

    From this, we can surmise Ah Puch's ult does a paltry amount even if it hits every tick compared to his regular kit. And Anubis's overall burst is higher. But let's compare something unstated until now: Cooldowns. Going back to a prior comparison...

    Ah Puch:
    1: 170 + 35% magical power
    2 (with 3 corpses from 1/3): 580 + 85% magical power
    3 (without enemy healing): 200 + 75% magical power

    Anubis:
    1: 570 + 240% (if all ticks hit)
    2: 340 + 140% (if all ticks hit)

    We can assume that Anubis and Ah Puch's ults won't always be up. Let's compare their regular kits' cooldowns.

    Ah Puch's 1: 10 seconds cooldown. Less if he's using it to heal himself, which we'll assume he's not.
    Ah Puch's 2: 8 seconds cooldown.
    Ah Puch's 3: 10 seconds cooldown.

    Anubis's 1: At level 1, 15 seconds cooldown. At level 5, 11 seconds cooldown. Same whether he uses it to heal himself or not.
    Anubis's 2: At level 1, 18 seconds cooldown. At level 5, 14 seconds cooldown. (Pay attention to this)
    Anubis's 3: At level 1, 15 seconds cooldown. At level 5, 11 seconds cooldown.

    Anubis's 2 is of note. It's both the highest and most important. Why? Anubis will only ever get up to about 3 ticks on someone if he fires his abilities without his 2 up. In reality, it's the only skill that its cooldowns matters on. The same is true for Ah Puch's 1 and 3. The 2 does virtually nothing without those abilities up.

    That means Ah Puch can do 950 + 195% magical power in damage every 10 seconds or so (I'm aware of the small travel time of his skills, but we're ignoring that like we're ignoring Anubis's 2's wrap's travel time because the difference is very small).

    Anubis, on the other hand, does 910 + 380% every 14 seconds.

    Over the course of 70 seconds (Anubis's ult's cooldown at level 20), this means Ah Puch gets 7 casts, whereas Anubis gets 5. Ah Puch does 6650 + 1365% magical power (of course with 3 corpses each cast, it wouldn't make sense otherwise) before Anubis's ult comes back up. Anubis, on the other hand, does 4550 + 1900%. Adding the calculations for their possible damage at that point, it comes down to:

    Sustained damage:

    Ah Puch: 9160 + 1795%
    Anubis: 6750 + 2730%

    Just for fun, I did this for another god, checking them for their maximum potential damage:

    Vulcan, without his 2 because that thing can do 10000 damage by itself if you let it hit you continually:
    6130 + 1950%

    Overall, I wouldn't necessarily say Ah Puch's scaling is BAD, per se. He more or less matches Vulcan, if not completely surpasses him due to his base damage. He just can't out-burst the highest burst mage in the game.



    It also means Anubis can't make the most of his scaling, whereas Ah Puch can buy it and his damage won't be as impacted.


    Ah Puch's damage is fine. It's just, it's too easy to hit his abilities. There's a reason why Vulcan's 3 was given a ground indicator; so he'd be a little easier to juke. Ah Puch deserves the same treatment. Remember that Vulcan's 1 is barely even an escape, so you can hardly say "Vulcan has an escape and Ah Puch doesn't." It's like half the size of a regular escape.
    Thank you for actually wanting to have a proper discussion rather than just arguing about things back and forth.
    Your Local Resident Trash Doggo
    I'm cheating on Anubis, Camazotz is in the dumpster now.

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