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Thread: On Item Restrictions

  1. #31
    Member Worshipper ABatthos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainDoomsday View Post
    Well, the meta would be disrupted by any change, like the new 2 hunter thing, but I can admit that this would particularly disturb people.
    Still, unless there's something I'm missing, any crossbuild would be, at best, a boon to allies, and never OP. Due to this, it wouldn't really affect the majority of games, but the introduction of the system would allow more versatility in the game's development. Future additions or changes could be made to make use of the option (or not), while existing gods would remain untouched. I'm not saying to rebalance the whole game around the change, merely put it on the table to remove a largely arbitrary restriction not just on players, but developers.

    The majority of complaints will be of something overpowered or VASTLY (SWK-level) underpowered. Items are mostly balanced now, with the exception of crit being nigh-inarguably the best way to build a Hunter or Assassin, which is why this forum sees so much less action than God Balance.

    The side jungles would change the meta heavily. Crossbuilding would only affect high-level play if an additional change is made to strengthen it, with the possible exception of Void Shield Guardians. Items that are particularly underpowered or overpowered (Regrowth and old Qin's come to mind) could also be adapted to mid-strength items with merits to either damage type.

    It's really more of a "why not?" issue, with me rejecting the answer of "because people are too stupid to be trusted with the responsibility of building their gods with an even larger pool." If someone's going to build poorly, nothing currently in-game will stop them.
    You don't get the point. It's not a matter of "why not?" and you just put it there. Imagine the implications of just "putting it" without having to rework the entire game as I said. Could you stand AA gods critting for 2000-3000 magical power each basic? Just answer that.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Prestigious Fênrîr's Avatar
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    The argument of increasing item variety with all items unlocked is a terrible one here.

    Stop using it.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Chosen CaptainDoomsday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABatthos View Post
    You don't get the point. It's not a matter of "why not?" and you just put it there. Imagine the implications of just "putting it" without having to rework the entire game as I said. Could you stand AA gods critting for 2000-3000 magical power each basic? Just answer that.
    First of all, I'd really like to see the math that allows a physical god to crit with magical power when their basics exclusively scale off of physical power, let alone for 3k.
    It also hardly works the other way, with Chronos and Ao Kaung becoming the most dangerous from building a crit item in place of anything else (giving up all of the physical power such an item awards), but Chronos still only has a max of 35% magical damage scaling, and Ao's basics aren't the source of his damage; his dragons, a skill, are.

    How would more items being available NOT increase item variety?

    No single god could be OP with any item from the power pool they can't currently use. At best, healing mages could get a speed buff from Shield of Regrowth, or phys gods could build Soul Reaver at the cost of an item slot and all of its power.
    Last edited by CaptainDoomsday; 05-27-2015 at 08:34 PM.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Prestigious Fênrîr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainDoomsday View Post
    How would more items being available NOT increase item variety?
    It is an EXTREMELY poor argument for this idea.

    Adding a bunch of items that is going to either go unused or only be used to abuse certain mechanics those items have to offer is not adding variety to the game it would be adding unhealthy gameplay. Just because it is available doesn't mean it is adding variety or depth to the game and god builds. Even with the plethora of items in LoL most champions very rarely derive from their own scalings unless they are hybrids like Warwick and Kayle.

    Maybe if things had Hybrid scalings in this game I would agree here.

    For example what possible use can a physical god get out of Polynomicon aside from trolling with it? Mana? Pls..

    Not only does the current system have a fail safe mechanism in place to help newbies more but it also prevents trolls from trolling as well. There is about 3-4 items on both sides of the spectrum here and almost all of those will be abuse cases so would you rather Hi-Rez nerf the shit out of things so you can build them or not break what isn't broken?

    You want more item variety? You guessed it you add more items to the game similar to what we got at the start of season 2. Preferably more situation items like if you are ahead you pick up X or if you are behind you get Y defensive item to help you by being down a couple of levels. Stuff like that is adding variety to builds and depth to the game.
    Last edited by Fênrîr; 05-27-2015 at 09:47 PM.

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    It's better this way so there are not too many OP Gods.
    A thousand years they bled

  6. #36
    Member Worshipper ABatthos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainDoomsday View Post
    First of all, I'd really like to see the math that allows a physical god to crit with magical power when their basics exclusively scale off of physical power, let alone for 3k.
    Oh I thought you were talking about making an "universal" magical/physical power system. My mistake. Still sounding a weird mechanic to apply for me now. So you are suggesting gods should deal both types of damage, magic and phys, depending on the items they buy? What use would have items that offer mostly one type of damage if they don't react to a god's damage scaling? Some items attributes would be left half or more than half useless to gods with the opposite type of power. It would be very messy and glitchy, kind of an "alpha" version idea. I don't deny it, it could be fun to see this crossbuilds. But it being fun doesn't mean it's viable, let alone aesthetically attractive as a global mechanic in-game, seeing it from the current perspective. You could maybe suggest a MOTD with this mechanic included. MOTDs are for that purpose, they offer game changing mechanics that can be fun but would break or wouldn't fit in the current meta/gameplay. Think it this way, the current itemization is what makes attractive the idea of playing magical or physical gods, you have choices this way that aren't available to all gods equally, so it impulses you to try for both to see the versality and specifity of each item, it's more than ok the way it is if you ask me. Your idea would be very confusing at the time of selecting items because some things just would be messed up and working bad for physical/magicals. As I said, it would be good for a MOTD though
    Last edited by ABatthos; 05-28-2015 at 08:40 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABatthos View Post
    Oh I thought you were talking about making an "universal" magical/physical power system. My mistake. Still sounding a weird mechanic to apply for me now. So you are suggesting gods should deal both types of damage, magic and phys, depending on the items they buy? What use would have items that offer mostly one type of damage if they don't react to a god's damage scaling? Some items attributes would be left half or more than half useless to gods with the opposite type of power. It would be very messy and glitchy, kind of an "alpha" version idea. I don't deny it, it could be fun to see this crossbuilds. But it being fun doesn't mean it's viable, let alone aesthetically attractive as a global mechanic in-game, seeing it from the current perspective. You could maybe suggest a MOTD with this mechanic included. MOTDs are for that purpose, they offer game changing mechanics that can be fun but would break or wouldn't fit in the current meta/gameplay. Think it this way, the current itemization is what makes attractive the idea of playing magical or physical gods, you have choices this way that aren't available to all gods equally, so it impulses you to try for both to see the versality and specifity of each item, it's more than ok the way it is if you ask me. Your idea would be very confusing at the time of selecting items because some things just would be messed up and working bad for physical/magicals. As I said, it would be good for a MOTD though
    I'm saying that the STARTING POINT is items for everyone, and then development has the OPTION to allow mixed damage types and scaling (separate things).
    For example, right now Freya deals exclusively magical damage, but she used to deal physical damage with melee. This could be reinstated, so her basics and 1 deal physical damage and her 2 still deals magical, or her SCALING could be altered, so that while she still only deals magical damage, physical power can boost the magical damage dealt by her skills and basics.
    I'll admit that a god being able to DEAL both kinds of damage should be done very conservatively (so far only Warriors can, via Mystical Mail and Nemean), but making certain gods' skills or basics scale with either or both powers is a very flexible option to have. Imagine a Hunter whose basics scale to something like 60% physical power and 15% magical, despite them only dealing phys damage.

    Currently, gods only scale with their main power, so no god as they are now would benefit from the opposite power. Deathbringer would ONLY provide 20% crit chance and 250% crits to a magical god, not 50 power. I'd be all for a MOTD as a testing ground for this idea, that's a great suggestion.

    I do acknowledge that the game is currently balanced for the split in power types, but there often seems to be a dearth of items for what players want to do, and god roles are far less flexible in Smite than LoL.

  8. #38
    Member Worshipper ABatthos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainDoomsday View Post
    I'm saying that the STARTING POINT is items for everyone, and then development has the OPTION to allow mixed damage types and scaling (separate things).
    For example, right now Freya deals exclusively magical damage, but she used to deal physical damage with melee. This could be reinstated, so her basics and 1 deal physical damage and her 2 still deals magical, or her SCALING could be altered, so that while she still only deals magical damage, physical power can boost the magical damage dealt by her skills and basics.
    I'll admit that a god being able to DEAL both kinds of damage should be done very conservatively (so far only Warriors can, via Mystical Mail and Nemean), but making certain gods' skills or basics scale with either or both powers is a very flexible option to have. Imagine a Hunter whose basics scale to something like 60% physical power and 15% magical, despite them only dealing phys damage.
    But then, you're just contradicting yourself:
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainDoomsday View Post
    ...Future additions or changes could be made to make use of the option (or not), while existing gods would remain untouched. I'm not saying to rebalance the whole game around the change, merely put it on the table to remove a largely arbitrary restriction...
    Please decide yourself. I don't know what your core for this idea is anymore. Do you want for Hi Rez to merely "put it on the table" and override the item restriction without any change, or you want them to change and rebalance every single god for this idea to be viable? Explain yourself better. For me still, both ideas seem bad and unlikely for Hi Rez to consider for normal gameplay. I'm more inclined to think you seem to really like LoL (whose mechanics I'm unfamiliar with), and you are comparing both systems because you like LoL itemization over Smite's. It works for LoL that way, but it works for Smite this way, and that's one of the things that makes it unique. So I still think those are bad ideas and that the lack of more items doesn't justify mixing everything, but adding more items, the exception as I said is to put it on a MOTD, but that never leaves that cage.

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    Senior Member Chosen CaptainDoomsday's Avatar
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    I haven't made a contradiction. I said that making items available everyone would set the stage for the OPTION to develop SOME gods to use both items in their scaling or damage. This option is, by definition, optional, and the majority of gods I expect to remain unchanged until their next rework or heavy buff. New gods would be more likely to crossbuild, but it's still not mandatory.

    For now, JUST make every item available, even if it's in a MOTD. If it shows promise, future changes to gods may provide alternate-power or dual scaling. How is this concept confusing?
    I like certain aspects of LoL. Many of the champions in it have a TON of versatility, and may be built magically or physically (though some have a more rewarding stat than the other). One even has a passive that gives physical power for building magic and vice-versa. Smite isn't particularly unique for having stifled build options and roles, just lacking a benefit other MOBAs have managed to use.
    I say try the MOTD a few times and see what arises.

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