View Poll Results: Hi-rez gods freely?

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Thread: Should Hi-rez freely experiment with gods from different pantheons?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Chosen DirtyDiggler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macaulyn View Post
    They have already stated they will not add equivalents to the Greek/Roman gods currently in game. Jupiter and Neptune are equivalent to Zeus and Poseidon, so, they won't be in there.
    Which is dumb, there is no point in having the Roman pantheon and yet not having their main gods. They dont have to be copies of Zeus/Pos/they could be made with different kits.
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    Senior Member Infamous Disquieted1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyDiggler View Post
    Which is dumb, there is no point in having the Roman pantheon and yet not having their main gods. They dont have to be copies of Zeus/Pos/they could be made with different kits.
    In that case, the overall diversity of gods in the game will be reduced. I'd rather one god of the sea than six.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Chosen DirtyDiggler's Avatar
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    Does it really matter if the kits are different? I would rather play with Gods I know then some random bone in the nose African god I never heard of for the sake or diversity.

    Not having Jupiter and Mars among others in this game would be like Marvel not having Spider man and Wolverine in a Marvel game.
    Last edited by DirtyDiggler; 03-03-2015 at 11:55 AM.
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    Senior Member Chosen Agent2090's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyDiggler View Post
    Not having Jupiter and Mars among others in this game would be like Marvel not having Spider man and Wolverine in a Marvel game.
    Pretty sure I can point you to some kind of movie rip-off Marvel Avengers game that makes that statement seem silly.
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  5. #15
    Banned Infamous Macaulyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyDiggler View Post
    Which is dumb, there is no point in having the Roman pantheon and yet not having their main gods. They dont have to be copies of Zeus/Pos/they could be made with different kits.
    They could, but they would still be Zeus and Poseidon with other names. Adding a god twice is not a good idea, when you can just add entirely new gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyDiggler View Post
    Does it really matter if the kits are different? I would rather play with Gods I know then some random bone in the nose African god I never heard of for the sake or diversity.

    Not having Jupiter and Mars among others in this game would be like Marvel not having Spider man and Wolverine in a Marvel game.
    Thats the most absurd comparison I've ever seen. The Greek Gods are the most famous mythological gods, the Romans are just them renamed, names which are much less known by people than the Greek ones. So, the mainstream here is actually having Zeus and Poseidon instead of Jupiter and Neptune. HiRez took the stand of considering the Greek and Roman gods from different pantheons, but still being the same characters, thats why they refer to each other by parentage. You already have Jupiter and Neptune, but they're there with their Greek names.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Honoured LokiWildfire's Avatar
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    I am not sure where I stand in this matter, but I want to address/comment on your points. It will mostly sound as I am decided that it is a bad idea, but in fact I am merely pointing counter arguments since (re)posting the same points (as an agreement would be) would add little to the discussion and wouldn't make anyone think about anything at all, other than what you already said already made them think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by SinDreadElla View Post

    When Hi-rez first made the Mayan Pantheon (starting with Xbal), it was clear that they made it for 2012 mayan calender thing and probably didn't have any serious intention of expanding the pantheon.
    But they still did, and it turned out for the best when they moved into S American market.


    Which brings us to the title of this topic.
    Should Hi-rez make new gods based on the gods they like instead of having to think hard of a pantheon they'd like to choose.
    I'd like to see Cúchulainn.
    I'd like to see Cromm Crúaich.
    I'd like to see Stribog, Susanoo, all of these heroes/deities from different religions, histories and backgrounds.
    I would like to address this later, so it will fill a bit out of order but oh well. While that is okay for people who are primarily or only concerned with game play and maybe individual gods/characters back history, that approach would be good. But HiRez would lose a tremendous potential for the in game lore (random deities poping out of other pantheons in the war of gods... yeah, sounds like lazy writing or "cool" writing - unless they brought the pantheon "en masse", not just one or another member once in a blue moon, but that is not what you are proposing or at least doesn't sound compatible). Then again, considering that HiRez completely doesn't capitalize SMITE's own lore at all, it might not be a big issue for them. (Note: I haven't read the official comic, assuming it's official official, so maybe they do plan to work on that - I dunno).
    When you establish pantheons and you're obliged to fill them up to a relatively decent number of characters before moving onto the next, you're basically limiting your own creativity as well as interest in other histories.
    Thematic constraint is not a constraint to creativity - usually "work" constraints tend to make creative flourish even more. It is a known fact for anyone in the creative industry (who has any actual skills, at least, because we can always find bad examples out there for anything). I don't want to write a book on game design, story telling, creativity, etc., but consider this: in order to think "outside of the box", you first need to have anything you can call a box in the first place, and said box works as guide to make you know you're in the right side and how far you've gone, rather than an actual constraint that traps you within.

    I'm not saying Hi-rez should just get rid of those flags beside each gods in the game.
    No, no. What I meant was, for them to not be limited to creating gods from only the existing pantheons, each season.
    Also addressing the previous point, it could be equally argued that is a good thing, so that there are no single pantheon gods just hanging around without a fellow. Maybe HiRez could in fact use pantheons for something, even if that could require a decent amount of re-work (maybe plan now for season 3 and beyond?). Things that could be done: having more than one god of the same pantheon gives you bonuses (but you forfeit using some very good combos, such as Zeus + Odin + Ao... I mean Kuk); gods from the same pantheon share similar traits; addition of a third "active item" which would be actually a skill that is tied to the pantheon; etc, and any combination of those ideas. In the other hand, given that HiRez has also done nothing regarding those options and afaik has not shown any sign it would wish to follow through with them, this argument is a bit less strong.

    But of course the fact is, we as the community is partly responsible for the blame as well.
    I remember people saying things like "What the Mayan/Chinese/Roman pantheon is getting no love?", when there was a whole line of only Greek and Norse gods coming out back then.
    And when told to do so, some of the gods that came out for those pantheons turn out to be a bit lackluster (kitwise) like Old Wa, AMC, Cabrakan, Sylvanus, Kumbha, Nox.
    So maybe the majority of the community is interested in fewer but richer pantheons (in terms of amount of in game gods, never mind their source religion's texts and or stories), and since HiRez makes the game to please the community, it is doing what the community actually wants?

    On a side note, lack luster? Maybe not up to your personal tastes, but the community's tastes? And say what you will, all of those guys are very good at their class' job, even if they needed to be tweaked after release (like every single god anyway), and sometimes even do well when they step out of the box being super flexible (Syl can be primarily a healer or a tank, though by end game he tends to do both decently whatever path he takes, Kabra can be a magic assassin, a magic bruiser or the nominal guardian - and he will be good at whatever he picks, etc., and we also have plenty of people who would rather have old nu wa, I am quite sure).

    So again I ask of the community.
    Should we get Hi-rez to create gods that they are genuinely interested in making, the ones that the game devs will put their heart and soul in, instead of being "forced" to fill up their own boundaries that they set up?
    Finally, without word from (most of) the devs, we can't be sure if they don't actually put their hearts and souls in these. After all, they were the ones that chose these pantheons - maybe these are the ones they're more interested to begin with.


    But like I said, I am just trying to counter here to further the discussion. In theory land where I a high level Game Designer at HiRez and can exploit the potential I see, I would definitely pick more robust pantheons over taking a "random" god from whatever pantheon designers feel like. Myself I am not sure what path would be the best in practice, given the actual HiRez we've got and its goals, designers, etc.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Honoured LokiWildfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macaulyn View Post
    Thats the most absurd comparison I've ever seen. The Greek Gods are the most famous mythological gods, the Romans are just them renamed, names which are much less known by people than the Greek ones.
    Actually the Roman gods are not. Their latter versions, the ones we usually find in Encyclopaedias (cough Wikipedia cough), obviously are similar because they ended being fused with the Greek (and further on, Egyptian and what not too, but then they are too abstract and vague to even bother talking about). That in addition to Romans having some gods that they never equated to any Greek god.

    That being said, I do think it is bad to add the gods that were equated. First, because differences aside, many times they did share more than just a few traits, so there would still be a sensible resemblance. Second, because they already don't seem to do much research on the gods they add beyond your most basic Google results, and I am sure as hell they won't bother with finding out the historical differences between Jove and Zeus, etc. In the other hand, I would like to see them adding the Roman/Greek equivalent as a skin for the existing gods.

  8. #18
    Banned Infamous Macaulyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiWildfire View Post
    Actually the Roman gods are not. Their latter versions, the ones we usually find in Encyclopaedias (cough Wikipedia cough), obviously are similar because they ended being fused with the Greek (and further on, Egyptian and what not too, but then they are too abstract and vague to even bother talking about). That in addition to Romans having some gods that they never equated to any Greek god.

    That being said, I do think it is bad to add the gods that were equated. First, because differences aside, many times they did share more than just a few traits, so there would still be a sensible resemblance. Second, because they already don't seem to do much research on the gods they add beyond your most basic Google results, and I am sure as hell they won't bother with finding out the historical differences between Jove and Zeus, etc. In the other hand, I would like to see them adding the Roman/Greek equivalent as a skin for the existing gods.
    Do you actually think only Wikipedia talks about mythology? You poor soul.
    Yes the ones that hardly anyone ever cared about, and some other who actually were borrowed from other mythologies, like Epona and Quirinus.
    Good.
    Precisely, there are differences, but, in the higher gods, like Zeus, there are very few things changed.
    Question: can anyone actually find something anywhere else than google and prove that what he/she found is right? Prove that there are enough differences to make Jupiter appear? Don't blame HiRez, the lack of information is for everyone.
    Not a bad idea, at all.

  9. #19
    Banned Worshipper Promagic's Avatar
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    what a troll thread.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Honoured LokiWildfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macaulyn View Post
    Do you actually think only Wikipedia talks about mythology? You poor soul.
    Yes the ones that hardly anyone ever cared about, and some other who actually were borrowed from other mythologies, like Epona and Quirinus.
    Good.
    Precisely, there are differences, but, in the higher gods, like Zeus, there are very few things changed.
    Question: can anyone actually find something anywhere else than google and prove that what he/she found is right? Prove that there are enough differences to make Jupiter appear? Don't blame HiRez, the lack of information is for everyone.
    Not a bad idea, at all.
    What is it with the carnival of colours? Sorry pal, that is horrible for reading, cut that. Not helping. Really.

    I did not even imply wikipedia is the only source (though a very damn common one). I clearly stated Encyclopaedias, as a source - or anything similar, since those sorts of general/introductory/resumed versions are far more accessible for the layman, and far more common to be consulted. Although is kinda ironic, Wikipedia is actually a bit better at that than many online sources and some encyclopaedias I have seem. For instance, I do recall being able to tell some of the different attributes of Jupiter/Jove pater (father Jove, Jupiter is a contraction that IIRC replaced the original name) and Zeus from it. Zeus apparently being much more like a pure douche (though it is debatable; we have more accounts from Greek artists, not an attempt at accurately representing their beliefs and practices, and two of their major genres being tragedy via the gods - which obviously paint the gods in not so good colours - and comedy, which plays a lot like tragedy, except that the "hero" is a moron and it feels he deserved it, but still doesn't improve the image of the gods). Jove, as the title Jove Pater (Father Jove) might imply, was seen in a better light, also being associated with a type of Wisdom/knowledge, more in the mysterious overseeing/governing side than the impulsive and sentimental Zeus. Also, Jove is NOT a brother to Neptune and Pluto at first, that being later introduced by Greek influence.

    Still, scavenging in the proper places Roman gods had particular attributes that made them clearly distinguishable (even if, as mentioned, some had multiple overlapping). Most obvious cases being Minerva/Athena. They get merged due to their connection to wisdom and family line, but as beings they were sensibly distinct, though throughout history that was the case with many of the other gods (OBVIOUSLY, some had more in common with the others than others). That is a point that I could have made it clearer and just alluded to it poorly, so my bad at it -the distinctions vary with time. Though I do use a rule of thumb for pre-Greek contact/assimilation (or at least heavy, with history you can NEVER draw a line except when geography kinda helps, such as the European discovery of the Americas and subsequent colonization), and those right before the assimilation.

    And you are very wrong about being "gods no one cared about". Janus being perhaps the best example - very important to the Romans, but you don't see as many mentions of him as you see for the "12 Olympians" (a greek concept, btw, the Romans did not have it originally). Many of them might novt have be "cared about" by post medieval historians, and perhaps medieval historians - either because they didn't get merged with a Greek god, which the renaissance and enlightenment people/historians had a hard on about, or because we lost much of the knowledge about them. Summanus comes to mind, as he seemed to previously be very important, but we don't know much about him as far as I know.

    Finally, the borrowing thing. That is a horrible argument. Sorry, just not valid or rational at all. If we apply it to any other pantheons, we have the same situation. To the Greeks, then we barely even have a Greek mythology. It would be adapted mythology from other peoples around (without recurring for specialist historical knowledge, this is easily evidenced by the incredible amount of inconsistency between different myths and narratives e.g. Eros: sometimes in some Greek narratives is the first god and god of love/attraction/desire being just one of three aspects of an actually more complex being; other he is one of the first Gods, but not quite the first - this one having multiple varieties, including one in which he is a son of Nyx; and in yet other versions he is a son of Aphrodite - all while at some versions being swallowed by Zeus so that he could achieve supremacy over the universe, wait what?). To the Norse, then essentially all the Norse gods would be mostly borrowings from other Germanic people's, likely from further south. And so on. If we don't draw a(n admittedly artificial, but rather practical) line where one starts and the other ends, we could easily end with just a few hypothetical original pantheons that no one would really much about, and that would be pointless for our gamely purposes.

    As for your question: checking more advanced books and academic works would help if that was the goal. Books like encyclopaedias are for layman after all. One could talk to specialists in the subjects (for example, visiting a university, contacting professors by email, etc. - I am quite sure some of them would be helpful). I am not "blaming" HiRez for (apparently) using primarily using only the commonly known versions and by doing just the same Google search that most people would. Yes, technically I am blaming that of it, but that is not necessarily a bad thing since they are making a game with plenty artistic licence, not an accurate mythological reconstruction. I thought that could go without saying, sorta obvious. But at the same time, I also not ignoring that if they wanted to do a deeper research, they could and that sometimes the god's kit and/or appearance they come up with don't quite match even the basic results of your Google search, aside from maybe a few sites lacking any sort of credibility (for example, Loki's everything and Odin's kit that only pays lip service to his mythic attributes - the moment you have a god of MAGIC not as a magical type of character but a physical warrior, you have a sizeable issue).

    And, because of that, I mention that I don't think they will take that route. I obviously wanted to keep it all short, but now I spelt it out anyway.
    Last edited by LokiWildfire; 03-03-2015 at 05:37 PM.

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