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Thread: Defense

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    Senior Member Infamous Myrkulyte's Avatar
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    Defense

    Played a 1v1 against an AMC, I was chaac. Everything went well, I bought defense, he dmg and I destroyed him, until he bought a nemean lion too. Then I barely dealt any dmg to him. Can someone explain why defense hunter>defense warrior?
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    Member Follower Ewana's Avatar
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    Isn't it kind of obvious? Warriors hit really small anyways, so against someone with defense they are just shit. Hunters can hit good, even against high dmg, especially with penetration.
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    Member Follower Ewana's Avatar
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    If you mean why did the makers make it that way, then it is also obvious, warriors are cc, team fight and multiple hit gods. They use abilities with cc or huge radiuses, hunters have single target attacks, so naturally they will win in a one on one with a warrior.
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    Senior Member Honoured AttackDamageCry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrkulyte View Post
    Played a 1v1 against an AMC, I was chaac. Everything went well, I bought defense, he dmg and I destroyed him, until he bought a nemean lion too. Then I barely dealt any dmg to him. Can someone explain why defense hunter>defense warrior?
    Probably because AMC does way more damage than Chaac, defense or not. Did you have Nemean too? Great against Hunters.

    I feel like you should have gone for Objectives with all that defense as opposed to trying to fight an AMC. Tower dive, phoenix dive and get lane pressure through fire minions. Obvious you're going to get outboxed late-game regardless of build if the AMC is worth his salt.

    Also you bought Fatalis, was it really necessary? You had Curse AND Sprint. I believe Fatalis to be a "hollow" item. It doesn't do much outside of it's passive so it's generally not very good outside of a few picks. I would have swapped Jotunn's too, especially because you had Qin's and were building AA not ability based Chaac. Maybe for Rage/ Mystical Mail.
    Last edited by AttackDamageCry; 01-01-2015 at 05:13 PM.
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    Forum Moderator Honoured AlexError's Avatar
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    Ah Muzen Cab also scales better than Chaac does. Chaac scales quadratically at best; AMC scales cubically with crit damage.
    Last edited by AlexError; 01-01-2015 at 07:24 PM.
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    Senior Member Infamous Myrkulyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackDamageCry View Post
    Probably because AMC does way more damage than Chaac, defense or not. Did you have Nemean too? Great against Hunters.

    I feel like you should have gone for Objectives with all that defense as opposed to trying to fight an AMC. Tower dive, phoenix dive and get lane pressure through fire minions. Obvious you're going to get outboxed late-game regardless of build if the AMC is worth his salt.

    Also you bought Fatalis, was it really necessary? You had Curse AND Sprint. I believe Fatalis to be a "hollow" item. It doesn't do much outside of it's passive so it's generally not very good outside of a few picks. I would have swapped Jotunn's too, especially because you had Qin's and were building AA not ability based Chaac. Maybe for Rage/ Mystical Mail.
    I was 3 lvls ahead IIRC, but I was scared to dive.
    I went frostbound instead of fatalis, but then I said: let's be disgusting. Rage instad of jottunn's would have been better? I had so much attack speed(1,7 iirc). 1 more question: why amc put 3 hives nearby the tower and phoenix? The regen stacks or how do they interact?

    And Alex, I have no ideea what you said there about the cubic and quadratic scale, I mean, one is at the 3rd power and the other and the 2nd power, but I don't get it.
    Last edited by Myrkulyte; 01-01-2015 at 05:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexError View Post
    Ah Muzen Cab also scales better than Chaac does. Chaac scales quadratically at best; AMC scales cubicly with crit damage.
    There's Quadratic and Cubic scaling? Wut?
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    Senior Member Honoured AttackDamageCry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrkulyte View Post
    I was 3 lvls ahead IIRC, but I was scared to dive.
    I went frostbound instead of fatalis, but then I said: let's be disgusting. Rage instad of jottunn's would have been better? I had so much attack speed(1,7 iirc). 1 more question: why amc put 3 hives nearby the tower and phoenix? The regen stacks or how do they interact?

    And Alex, I have no ideea what you said there about the cubic and quadratic scale, I mean, one is at the 3rd power and the other and the 2nd power, but I don't get it.
    In joust there are only a few ways to win. Snowball a lead and force an f6. Backdoor or Siege. No matter how you look at it, for every God in the game, objectives are important. With certain Gods you just have a timer ticking down until that God loses all real relevance.

    It's the same as Bakasura, yeah his early game is scary and it's easy to snowball a lead, but if you let it get past mid-game your only option is to backdoor because it's unlikely you'll be able to win a straight up engagement against a true late game carry/ hyper carry unless you outplay them.

    Chaac can't really backdoor, but he can siege. He can tank tower/ phoenix shots for a while with his heal, also allows him to constantly push and pressure the lane which in turn stops the opponent from pushing. Healing up poke is also really strong.

    So I feel like you tried to win the kills game as opposed to accepting Chaac's inevitable shortcomings late-game as opposed to really going for the objective game when ultimately, objectives are more important than kills, that's just how joust is.

    And that's sort of reflected in your build. You tried to fight him, you tried to keep up. To keep up with an AMC who's building crit, you also need crit, otherwise you just won't hit as hard. The whole time you're fighting he's going to be passively healing through his hives while pewpewing phat crits on you. And even if you build crit, that doesn't guarantee anything, you would still have to rely on the fact that your damage is easier to confirm than his.

    Ultimately I'd say, at that point in the game, don't fight him, just go for objectives. More physical defense, more penetration in the form of Titan's Bane and really just fight for the objectives, not for the kills that allow you to get objectives. Just for objectives.

    As for Jotunn's.. I don't really agree with it on Chaac at all. Jotunn's gives you Pen, Mana, CDR and Physical Power. Great item.

    Except...

    Chaac doesn't need flat pen because he's typically AA based not ability based.
    Chaac doesn't need mana, he has a passive based around mana management and sustain.
    Chaac doesn't need CDR because first point.
    Chaac doesn't need THAT much physical power because ultimately most of his damage will come from Qin's as opposed to his actual AA's. I know this is debatable as his 3 also scales with physical power, but that's just my opinion (there are also better ways to get physical power).

    I feel Chaac is scary when he's un-killable. When he has so much defense and so much regeneration that you just can't deal with him even as he's under your tower ramming it down. Either that or you have to keep up in terms of damage, but with your build in that game you weren't able to do either of those things as you prioritized attack and move speed too highly over actual damage and objective push which in the end fucked you over. I'd bet you a lot of money a lot of your deaths were caused by Nemean, you were AAing so much so fast and probably hitting like a wet noodle in the process.
    The pros miss as many AA's as I do. I'm not a pro. Lyfe unfair.

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    Senior Member Infamous Disquieted1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by as4mo3 View Post
    There's Quadratic and Cubic scaling? Wut?
    Probably refers to how quickly a god scales per level. I see it more as linear and quadratic instead of quadratic and cubic.
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    Forum Moderator Honoured AlexError's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disquieted1 View Post
    Probably refers to how quickly a god scales per level. I see it more as linear and quadratic instead of quadratic and cubic.
    Quote Originally Posted by as4mo3 View Post
    There's Quadratic and Cubic scaling? Wut?
    Quote Originally Posted by Myrkulyte View Post
    And Alex, I have no ideea what you said there about the cubic and quadratic scale, I mean, one is at the 3rd power and the other and the 2nd power, but I don't get it.
    Scaling with power is linear (Bastet).
    Scaling with power and attack speed is quadratic. (Chaac).
    Scaling with power, attack speed and critical hit chance is cubic. (Rama).

    The pre-nerf Rage used to scale cubically, since it gave three separate stats. Never use exponential as a term to describe scaling; no god scales exponentially in Smite.
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