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Thread: Heavy Hammer/Frostbound balance?

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    Trash Doggo Demigod Goobis's Avatar
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    Heavy Hammer/Frostbound balance?

    Why does Heavy Hammer have a 25% slow for a tier 2 item worth 1100 gold, when FrostBound Hammer only increases the slow by a mere 5% for double the price. With the changes made for "Tier 2 passives" FrostBound Hammer was not made anymore viable whatsoever, all that was done was introduce its tier 2 passive to be much more cost efficient for almost the same passive.

    Even from Hammer to FrostBound, the base stats from tier 2 to 3 are not very impressive either. Tier 2 Heavy Hammer gives a 25% slow, 18 Power, and 200 HP (All for 1100 Gold). Tier 3 Frost Bound only gives an extra 5% on slow, 7 more power, and 200 more HP (for 1200 Gold).

    Two things imo could be done to improve FrostBounds viability. Nerf Heavy Hammers slow, to say 15%..... and slightly increase the amount of power Frostbound could grant, or lower the cost of Frostbound and make Heavy Hammer weaker forcing to actually finish the item itself.


    Just suggestions, im not a professional balance expert of anything like that. But imo, Heavy Hammer gives way too much for its cost, and Frostbound doesnt give enough to be worth finishing the item.

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    Retired Super Moderator Prestigious KingScuba's Avatar
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    still wouldn't get used as much as other items. You don't even see heavy hammer used that often.
    Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios. Also I will not be able to contest your in-game ban.

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    Bug Connoisseur Prestigious Flareb00t's Avatar
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    There is nothing you could do to try and balance out the effectiveness of Heavy Hammer. It's just not worth it. 1200 gold difference from Heavy to Frostbound for what, 12 power and 200 health? Frostbound is inherently a bad item, but Heavy Hammer will either be either too efficient or not good enough. There is no middle ground.

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    Forum Moderator Honoured AlexError's Avatar
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    Aiming for DotA2's Eye of Skadi may be a step in the right direction.

    It's a very expensive item, provides a 30% slow and an attack speed slow that lasts for a relatively long time; it also provides a lot of stats - armour, health, mana, attack speed, damage. I'm pretty sure it provides one of the highest stats in the game. It has a much longer duration than Smite's Frostbound.

    Alternatively, LoL's Frozen Mallet is more similar to Smite's current Frostbound Hammer, apart from it has more health and has a 40% slow. This is enough to put a hunter straight into diminishing returns range in Smite. Duration is shorter than Smite.

    If we're going to fine-tune to Smite, then the slow and attack speed slow should exist, as well as the health. Then, maybe you can add on protections, and make the item slightly more expensive. The item should give a generous amount of physical power, a high amount of health, and a good attack speed/movement speed slow at around 35% for around 2 seconds.

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    Member Worshipper Demystificator's Avatar
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    You can't compare an item from dota to a smite one...

    I think frostbound hammer is getting useless cause ppl'd rather buy fatalis or winged blade.

    Especially Winged blade : it costs less gold, more life, other stats to stick the target and antislow passive...

    The true problem with Frostbound it is its price, too high for so few power/life and the slow on AA is a bad pick for physicals cause they may have already a slowing skill.
    Its slow is insane though.

    Attack speed slow already exists in Smite : Witchblade and Midgardian Mail and some skills like Neith's 2.

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    Forum Moderator Honoured AlexError's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demystificator View Post
    You can't compare an item from dota to a smite one...

    I think frostbound hammer is getting useless cause ppl'd rather buy fatalis or winged blade.

    Especially Winged blade : it costs less gold, more life, other stats to stick the target and antislow passive...

    The true problem with Frostbound it is its price, too high for so few power/life and the slow on AA is a bad pick for physicals cause they may have already a slowing skill.
    Its slow is insane though.

    Attack speed slow already exists in Smite : Witchblade and Midgardian Mail and some skills like Neith's 2.
    Yes, you can compare items. You have to realise why one item is bought in one game, but not in the other - we see in Smite, that the slow is not enough, and the item needs more stats - made apparent from the Eye of Skadi.

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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Falcon777's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Alex, You can compare items in from different MOBA's. I like the concept of Eye of Skadi, I think the damage on Frostbound is fine, It could use some additional stats attack speed would be a good one. But, It does need to have a slow difference for melee attacks and ranged attacks. Also though Heavy Hammer needs to meet the Nerf Bat. Reducing the slow to 15% or so.

    I love the adding of passives on tier 2 items. It adds so much more depth but, c'mon 25% slow for that cost
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    Member Worshipper Demystificator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexError View Post
    Yes, you can compare items. You have to realise why one item is bought in one game, but not in the other - we see in Smite, that the slow is not enough, and the item needs more stats - made apparent from the Eye of Skadi.
    With more than 400hrs of dota behind me, I can tell you Eye of Skadi is a very specific buy. Most of the time, it is bought to troll; very few heroes do need it.

    Ok, lets compare the slow value in a game which has totally different movement mechanics... Moreover in Dota, most of items (like eye) brings many stats at the same time making your char tankier and faster attack for example. In smite, items are offensive or defensive, there is few items which can be used for both.
    In Dota, you don't have any restricted item, you can buy all tanks items or agility ones... In smite they wanted to separate physicals and magicals (just imagine Herc + Bancroft ...)
    Lets compare a game where AA is auto aimed with a game which requires targeting all the time and were arrows can get over minions...

    Just to let you know if we translate Eye of Skadi item in Smite :

    +725hp (that's the actual total Eye brings you in dota)
    +3 physical protection (that's actual armor you get in dota)
    +35 SP5
    +575 mana
    +5 MP5
    +25% attack speed

    Just tell me how is it supposed to be funnier to have an item which do everything in one ?

    Smite has adopted another way to think about item. In dota you need to think "early items, mid game items, end game items". In smite, you need to know what'd be your final build already. You need to think about defense or offense ? Items with stacks or no ?

    finally, in Dota2, items do the carry, ever magical. It isn't the same in smite.
    So please, stop comparing those games, or stay on Dota2 if you think they know how to build items better.

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    Forum Moderator Honoured AlexError's Avatar
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    You're comparing everything. Of course not everything can be compared, yet, there are some aspects that can be: why is an item with a slow not picked? Because the item requires additional stats on top of it to be an effective buy, as escapes allow you to get away from basic attack slows. Eye of Skadi is a specific buy; but Frostbound Hammer is almost a never buy.

    In Dota, you don't have any restricted item, you can buy all tanks items or agility ones... In smite they wanted to separate physicals and magicals (just imagine Herc + Bancroft ...)
    Lets compare a game where AA is auto aimed with a game which requires targeting all the time and were arrows can get over minions...
    First sentence is irrelevant, Eye of Skadi is pretty much an auto attacking item, akin to the FBH. Second sentence is also irrelevant: Smite has made adjustments to items to account for aimed auto attacks. Therefore, if we start from a base like the Skadi, we can then modify the item so that it fits with Smite.

    We're not comparing everything. We're comparing similar mechanics (basic attack slowing) and why a slow on its own is not worth an item that costs 'x' gold. We are seeing that an item which provides a basic attack slow needs to have additional stats for it to be effective.

    Smite has adopted another way to think about item. In dota you need to think "early items, mid game items, end game items". In smite, you need to know what'd be your final build already. You need to think about defense or offense ? Items with stacks or no ?
    Again, slightly irrelevant. We're not talking about time sensitivity in items, but rather the effectiveness of an item in a vacuum for a value of gold.

    MOBAs can be compared in some aspects and not in others. Some things, like mages and magical scaling cannot be compared as they are wildly different. Other things like items can be. We're not trying to copy everything from DotA2 and bring it across; we're trying to learn from other MOBAs to see how they have implemented an item.

  10. #10
    Member Worshipper Demystificator's Avatar
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    You cannot take just one item and say "nah you can't compare why and how this item is designed for".
    You cannot compare items which upgrades AA and say "nah you can't compare how AA works"...

    Ask yourself why in Dota, items give soooooooo much stats and have such impact on the game and why in smite, you can still be killed even if you got a better item.

    Moreover, Skadi does be a endgame item. You cannot start any Skadi item directly !
    Skadi does be an aggressive item whereas Hammer is set as Defensive.

    Above the stats, in pub games, many defensive items are just ignored.
    Why ? Because ppl wants to hurt, nothing more, nothing less. They follow their offensive build and never stop crying when they got 1-shot.
    The slow offered by Hammer is too low compared to what Fatalis can offer cause Fatalis is an offensive item...

    You don't pick Hammer for slowing but because you need life, maybe a little power and you're planning to be a physical tank, which is kinda rare.

    I think the price should be lowered. For now, Runeforged armor grants better balance between offense/defense and gets only 50hp less for 250gold less.
    The same goes again for Winged Blade.

    Hammer shouldn't lower attack speed for many reasons :
    1) Witchblade does it best. No ppl will stick to Witchblade.
    2) Defensive items are picked by tanks, melee char. That means you could slow ONE guy attack speed ? What's the point ?
    3) Still because of witchblade, if attack speed reductions will stack, it would be OP as f***, countering every assassins or hunters you could hit...

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