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Thread: how good are these build for nox

  1. #31
    Senior Member Chosen Spartan219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuffinMan17 View Post
    Here, help you all out.

    https://www.smitefire.com/smite/guid...ed-black-20637

    That's a guide posted by Tlaloc (another member) with build contribution and ability write-up from me. This is still viable (last updated September 26th), and has more in-depth discussion on ability use as well.

    I have standard mid build, support build, and non-conquest (or teamfight mode without stacking) build.

    As an aside, one mid build (titled "Anti-Tank") does have both Spear of the Magus AND Obsidian Shard...this was at the request of another member, as that combo has been seen even in SPL.

    Yes, there is a good amount of inefficiency there (flat protection reduction reduces the effectiveness of % pen), but if you're facing a very tanky combo, but still want good function against squishies, it actually allows for both.

    This is similar in ways to when hunters build both The Executioner and Titan's Bane...and that combo has been seen a TON. I personally dislike the idea of inefficiencies like that...but it's out there. It's at least an option, and shouldn't be "never." Always leave your options open, as long as you understand how the mechanics work.
    thanks will try it out

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobis View Post
    Realistically, Shard/Magus together is only worth it if the enemy has a ridiculous amount of magical protections, like around 230+. Magus nerfs your own Shard passive making the % ignore of it weaker. If you want Shard badly, just go Desolation or Divine instead of Magus, or vice versa, just not Magus/Shard together.
    yeah i read in pen guide was discussing about it with my friend to not use them together but he said it's fine to use and will give more dmg
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  2. #32
    Guide Senior Cupidhead MuffinMan17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan219 View Post
    yeah i read in pen guide was discussing about it with my friend to not use them together but he said it's fine to use and will give more dmg
    This is an accurate statement, but limited in scope.

    The biggest thing to think about when committing to both Magus AND Obsidian (and which is actually the biggest reason I don't like to build both) is that they are both completely damage-oriented...and with Obsidian, completely directed at tanks. It offers almost nothing against squishies (at level 20, most squishies will have around 48 magical protection without outside influence...that's like 7-8 pen equivalence, which is weaker than all items that have flat pen).

    Other items can enhance damage, but have other utility, such as lifesteal, movement speed, CDR, protections, flat pen (helpful against objectives as well), etc.

    And with regard to Nox, I've never considered her a main damage dealer...her biggest strength is her CC.

    Anyway, I've also written an items guide with a pen/protection reduction chapter. If you're interested in reading, it's here: http://www.smitefire.com/smite/guide...-choices-14522

  3. #33
    The Mad Hatter Prestigious Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan219 View Post
    yeah i read in pen guide was discussing about it with my friend to not use them together but he said it's fine to use and will give more dmg
    It depends on your targets and the like.

    Spear gives a bunch more damage against squishies.

    Obs gives a bunch more damage against tanks.

    With both vs a Tank, you limit the effectiveness of Obs Shard due to its scaling coefficient combined with you reducing the targets protections.

    Quote Originally Posted by MuffinMan17 View Post
    Anyway, I've also written an items guide with a pen/protection reduction chapter. If you're interested in reading, it's here: http://www.smitefire.com/smite/guide...-choices-14522
    I notice there's an error in the calculations in the penetration section.

    Your equation with Void Shield is off, since you're using Obsidian Shard giving its full 45% protection ignore despite the target being at 180 protections rather than the 200 required for the item to cap out. It would actually only be giving 41.25% protection ignore at that value (A total reduction of 74.25 rather than 81)

    Given the equations for Obs Shard and Titan's Bane:

    Obs Shard: (((Prots-40)/160)*30)+15 = Percentage Protection Ignore
    Titan's Bane: (((Prots-65)/135)*25)+15 = Percentage Protection Ignore

    As a side note, I find it interesting that despite physical protections being innately higher due to base phys prots being ~2x higher after scaling, it's actually Obsidian Shard that has the higher maximum penetration at 45% with 200 prots vs Titan's Bane's 40% with 200 prots.

    Feels kind of backwards. Especially when I recall that in game I tend to struggle to hit 200 mag prots (Usually get stuck in the 160-190ish area) while I often easily get 220+ phys without even trying to pick up the higher prot items...
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Chosen Spartan219's Avatar
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    so is it better to use both against tanks that have high defense like 150 or more?
    while i know obsidian pen works on the target's current protections and it's pen is counter after spear of magus but together against tankier targets should be super good still i think
    maybe not against bruiser guardians
    I know what I have become... I am the inside of this world... I taste the gore, and I smell the crying... AND I WANT MORE! I want to bathe in your flesh, I want to savor your fear. I wanna live inside a castle built of your agony, AND I WANT TO CRUMBLE IT WITH AN AXE TO YOUR CAROTID ARTERY!

  5. #35
    The Mad Hatter Prestigious Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan219 View Post
    so is it better to use both against tanks that have high defense like 150 or more?
    while i know obsidian pen works on the target's current protections and it's pen is counter after spear of magus but together against tankier targets should be super good still i think
    maybe not against bruiser guardians
    It's hard to say. Since there are a lot of factors that go into the discussion of "Is it better to use X or Y?"

    Since, yes, you will get more penetration against high protection targets with Obs + Magus. But you have to factor in the alternate choices, which have more power (So if you have a high scaling mage it throws into question as to how far the power goes vs the penetration), or more utility (Such as if you go Desolation or something without pen like Iso)

    In addition, what god you're using (Like, do they get innate penetration like Thoth/Scylla? Can they just CC chain a tank and not worry about dealing slightly less damage for not having as much pen?)

    I think the answer may just lie in how things feel in game. Like, don't plan on getting both, just plan on picking at least one of them up. Then if, in a game you find you're lacking damage against the frontlines because they're stacking prots out the ass, then consider picking the other up to help punch through those tanks who are specifically counterbuilding you.
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  6. #36
    Guide Senior Cupidhead MuffinMan17's Avatar
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    @Relanah: Ahhh yeah, I slipped on that calc. Will have to fix it. Thanks for taking the time to read it!

    The way I think of Ob Shard vs. Titan's Bane, it makes sense to me, though I can understand your point.

    But for Ob Shard to be more relevant, the 45% allows it to stay a bit even with its physical variant, Titan's, due to magical protections often being lower than physical on a tank...it can still have about the same % effect against a bit less magical protection.

    In addition, I don't think you want Titan's to be any stronger than it already is. I'd say the biggest factor here is the relationship of physical power with basic attacks. You can have tons of magical power, and only 20% of it goes toward basic attack damage, but physical power has 100% conversion. I know that Titan's is typically more for ability users, but again with a lot of hunters doing the Exe + TB thing, they don't want that getting out of hand.

    At least, that's the way I'm thinking of it.

    Overall, for Nox, I see more overall use out of Spear of the Magus, personally. Keep in mind Pen only applies to you, while Protection Reduction applies to any other magical teammates. Combine that with a guardian teammate that gets Void Stone, and you've got very functional pen effect even against most tanks...and of course it's waaaaaay more effective overall against squishies.

    In most cases, even with a couple tanks, I prefer only SotM (with perhaps added pen from Shoes of the Magi).

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuffinMan17 View Post
    @Relanah: Ahhh yeah, I slipped on that calc. Will have to fix it. Thanks for taking the time to read it!
    P.S. In your List of Gods with Penetration/Prot Reduction skills, you've not mentioned:

    Scylla's max rank Crush ignoring 25% magical protections.
    Artio's Decompose passive shreds 2% prots per stack.
    Khepri's Rising Dawn shreds 25% protections.
    Sylvanus's Verdant Growth is 25 flat prot shred when it roots a target or when the bud is destroyed.
    Serqet's Deathbane is 10% physical protection shred per hit.
    Nu Wa's Clay Soldiers shred 20 flat protections each charge.
    Chiron's Masterful Shot provides 5% physical protection shred while the debuff is active

    The way I think of Ob Shard vs. Titan's Bane, it makes sense to me, though I can understand your point.

    But for Ob Shard to be more relevant, the 45% allows it to stay a bit even with its physical variant, Titan's, due to magical protections often being lower than physical on a tank...it can still have about the same % effect against a bit less magical protection.
    Though, due to the way protections work against damage it's not quite that simple...

    Also, if they did want it to have the same effect at lower magical protection, they could have just simply lowered the threshold for it to cap out. Which would make even more sense given that the 15% minimum threshold is already different (Titan's needs over 65 prots to start giving more than the base 15% while Obs only needs over 40 prots) meaning it would get to its cap faster and so the linear scaling of its % reduction would be steeper and thus stay on par with its mirror.

    In addition, I don't think you want Titan's to be any stronger than it already is. I'd say the biggest factor here is the relationship of physical power with basic attacks. You can have tons of magical power, and only 20% of it goes toward basic attack damage, but physical power has 100% conversion. I know that Titan's is typically more for ability users, but again with a lot of hunters doing the Exe + TB thing, they don't want that getting out of hand.
    Well, Exe + TB already limits the potential for TB by the nature of how that interaction works. Reducing a targets protections by a substantial amount via Exe's percent reduction greatly reduces the potential for TB by making it not be able to get as high scaling.

    Like, against a target with 200 protections, Exe puts that down to 134 and then the difference between a 40% and a 45% max TB is a protection ignore of 27.77% vs 30.33% (Or approximately 37 vs 40 protections)

    Meanwhile, the difference between a 40% and a 45% max Obs Shard, given that it's often taken as an single penetration item, against a 200 protection target is a difference of 80 vs 90 protections being ignored.
    Last edited by Relanah; 11-21-2018 at 10:12 PM.
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    Guide Senior Cupidhead MuffinMan17's Avatar
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    Good list on additional abilities, thanks.

    No, it's definitely not that simple, and yes they could totally just adjust the threshold, but my point is a potential reason. Remember that a lot of times, HR choices don't make all that much sense XD

    Yes, Exe + TB limits TB's potential...but that loss of efficiency isn't so much that it's all that bad, depending on how you look at it. No other combination will chunk a tank's prots like that. Fact of the matter is that combo will absolutely make a tank scared (+ Qin's). Mess with their head and they'll be less willing to initiate, or start to retreat earlier than they need to, or just straight up die. No tank or less effective tank, and squishies are much more exposed.

    Also TB allows solid damage without the Exe stacks, for those that use damaging abilities before going in with basics.

    Keep in mind, I'm not saying it's usually a suggested build direction...I'm mostly playing devil's advocate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuffinMan17 View Post
    Yes, Exe + TB limits TB's potential...but that loss of efficiency isn't so much that it's all that bad, depending on how you look at it. No other combination will chunk a tank's prots like that. Fact of the matter is that combo will absolutely make a tank scared (+ Qin's).
    *Laughs in Kuzenbo*
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