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Thread: Queen of the Gods | 5.19 Update Notes

  1. #21
    The Mad Hatter Chosen Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    But there's her ult, which has pretty sad damage except over time.
    Sure, but that's the thing about her. Her ult isn't a big one-shot type ult. It's more of a pressure style ult.

    I mean, Ah Puch's ult doesn't do much damage in practice either. But that doesn't stop him being good because his basic skills deal a ton of damage.

    Her damage from her basic abilities is decent. So she'll still do mage things. Heck, even though Thoth does like 1000 damage with his ult if he lands it, most of his actual damage comes from his basic abilities because when you spam out 70%+ scaling attacks every ~10 seconds (With CDR) then you do a lot of damage as a mage.

    All of these gods also have crazy high burst, and 3 have strong poke. I was saying "x PLUS y," rather than just "y."
    But their utility is near zero.

    Hera has decent poke, she has a strong CC and she has some additional benefits from leveraging Argus.

    She has benefits that make her able to contest these massive burst mages because she has actual utility.

    One line ability is unlikely to hit many targets at once, and Argus dies pretty fast.
    We'll see how it turns out. I mean, her range on her line ability is ridiculous and it's also fairly fat so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as rarely hitting multiple targets. Especially in conquest where any kind of jungle engagement is going to make it easy to destroy a team with the CC (Much like how Janus or Raijin can single handedly win a teamfight by sending their similar width ults down a jungle corridor and hit 3-5 people for a massive impact - This is with their rather long wind up to actually fire these skills)

    Also, even if Argus dies "Fast" that's still resources gone into taking him down and not taking down your teams gods.

    It's like that Support mentality, where if you instantly die in a teamfight because you got focused by literally all 5 enemy gods. Well, that's just a ton less abilities that your team will be taking.

    So long as you're using Argus smartly, that is. Not just sending him off to go Rambo against the enemy Hunter while your team hasn't even engaged yet. Kind of like 99.999999% of Skadi players who just send Kaldr in and call her shit when he's vaporised before he even reaches someone...

    Save for one other CC on her ult, that's not a lot; especially since Argus and his aura can't proc Iso.
    Quality over quantity.

    Athena has amazing CC. Like, she's probably one of the strongest CC gods in the game. She has literally one CC. But it's powerful enough to make her feared and cause Beads to be nigh mandatory against her.

    Likewise, Bellona has CC on 3 of her 4 skills. But no-one's really calling her a strong CC god because her CC is kind of weak being softer CC and/or small in its area that it usually only hits 1 target.

    Just looking at numbers of CC abilities is not really very effective at gauging the amount of utility a god brings, you also have to consider the type and ease of use of the CC.

    In this case, Hera has a very easy to land, very potent CC that can affect multiple targets without too much difficulty (It's not like having the stars align on a full eclipse of a blood moon are a requirement like something like a multi-person Herc combo). The slow from Argus is just icing on the cake if you get him on a target.



    But just barely filling a certain niche filled by other gods who do that better is a situation you can't quite break out of just by being able to splitpush.
    Well, she does bring things. She brings more hard CC than other longer range poke mages. She burns objectives well. She soaks damage in teamfights with Argus, even if he goes down fast, that's still something that other non-Tank mages (Zhong/Hades) can't do.

    Then of course, she can get Argus back UP pretty fast too. With her passive proccing so freely, there's tons of potential to get him up in about a similar length of time as a basic ability (Approx ~20 seconds. Which for a Support Guardian is about the same length of time that their CC is on CD thanks to ridiculous base CD's and lack of CDR on prominent support items)


    You need a bit more, and Argus sounds like a good way to break out of that situation on paper; but in practice, he'd dumb as a brick even with the ability to command him, and his low prots make him easy to kill.
    Again, we'll see.

    He has potential. I mean, if Argus is running in alongside a solo laner, a jungler and a support, it might be possible that Argus, the lowest priority target that's engaging, might actually do some work.

    Especially if incidental poke damage from AoE's and missed skill shots are being mitigated by the healing that Hera will be providing - Not to mention the mitigation of damage through CC.

    Or what if, as I might suspect, Hera's ran in the solo lane and she herself is tanky and running in and absorbing damage that would be going to Argus? Then he'll be punching people and slowing them down in addition to her own polymorph, getting healed from multi-proccing Mystical Mail (As well as getting the CDR when he's dead).

    Hera has great potential to be a top tier mage, as well as potential to be really OP in Conquest. I suppose we'll see once she hits live and people start playing with and against her on a much larger scale.
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  2. #22
    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    Sure, but that's the thing about her. Her ult isn't a big one-shot type ult. It's more of a pressure style ult.
    It's rather sad pressure with how inconsistent Argus is, though. If he were more reliable and durable, he could offer more pressure, but that's not the case.

    I mean, Ah Puch's ult doesn't do much damage in practice either. But that doesn't stop him being good because his basic skills deal a ton of damage.
    He's still not good, though. His ult is just shit overall and he can barely defend himself; it's been that way for, what, 3 seasons?

    But their utility is near zero.
    Zeus? Perhaps, given his low CC. The rest? Not really. Vulcan has a ranged knockup, Freya has a banish, and Ah Puch has AoE slows and counters healing. It's less than what Hera has, but not non-existent.

    Hera has decent poke, she has a strong CC and she has some additional benefits from leveraging Argus.

    She has benefits that make her able to contest these massive burst mages because she has actual utility.
    2 hard CCs is utility, but Argus is just really soft and slow. 3k HP sounds like a lot, but with only 35 prots, he ded.

    We'll see how it turns out. I mean, her range on her line ability is ridiculous and it's also fairly fat so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as rarely hitting multiple targets. Especially in conquest where any kind of jungle engagement is going to make it easy to destroy a team with the CC (Much like how Janus or Raijin can single handedly win a teamfight by sending their similar width ults down a jungle corridor and hit 3-5 people for a massive impact - This is with their rather long wind up to actually fire these skills)
    Bear in mind, though, that it's still slow as fuck. It's going to be good for catching targets off-guard with a snipe, but not for disabling lots of enemies at once.

    Also, even if Argus dies "Fast" that's still resources gone into taking him down and not taking down your teams gods.
    Fair.

    Quality over quantity.

    Athena has amazing CC. Like, she's probably one of the strongest CC gods in the game. She has literally one CC. But it's powerful enough to make her feared and cause Beads to be nigh mandatory against her.

    Likewise, Bellona has CC on 3 of her 4 skills. But no-one's really calling her a strong CC god because her CC is kind of weak being softer CC and/or small in its area that it usually only hits 1 target.

    Just looking at numbers of CC abilities is not really very effective at gauging the amount of utility a god brings, you also have to consider the type and ease of use of the CC.

    In this case, Hera has a very easy to land, very potent CC that can affect multiple targets without too much difficulty (It's not like having the stars align on a full eclipse of a blood moon are a requirement like something like a multi-person Herc combo). The slow from Argus is just icing on the cake if you get him on a target.
    It's good for stopping attacks and keeping enemies from escaping her or Argus, but not necessarily for setup, peel, or sticking.

    Well, she does bring things. She brings more hard CC than other longer range poke mages. She burns objectives well. She soaks damage in teamfights with Argus, even if he goes down fast, that's still something that other non-Tank mages (Zhong/Hades) can't do.

    Then of course, she can get Argus back UP pretty fast too. With her passive proccing so freely, there's tons of potential to get him up in about a similar length of time as a basic ability (Approx ~20 seconds. Which for a Support Guardian is about the same length of time that their CC is on CD thanks to ridiculous base CD's and lack of CDR on prominent support items)
    Bug again, Argus doesn't look very reliable. He runs into things that kill him and stops attacking for no reason in gameplay footage I've seen. He can bodyblock but if he's not smart enough to stay out of damaging AoEs or stay on the guy you want him to stay on, that's not all too useful.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    Bug again, Argus doesn't look very reliable. He runs into things that kill him and stops attacking for no reason in gameplay footage I've seen. He can bodyblock but if he's not smart enough to stay out of damaging AoEs or stay on the guy you want him to stay on, that's not all too useful.
    In my experience, he works almost exactly like Kaldr.

    You sic him on a target, and he runs at it and tries to punch it. You recall him and he comes and sits by your side.

    The only different thing between them is while Kaldr is ethereal when at your side, Argus is just on "Protecc" mode and is attackable and so also retaliates against nearby hostiles.

    The thing being, if you're good at controlling Kaldr, you should be able to micro Argus to being more useful. I.e. Moving him away from AoE's, making sure he's targetting the dude you want, figuring when you want to use your shield to give him a speed boost to reposition, give him the speed + Mystical Mail aura for harass or to use your own shield to soak damage for him.

    So yeah... I imagine for a LOT of people, Argus and by extension, Hera will be trash because so few people can utilize Kaldr.

    But the people that can use Kaldr/learn to use Argus, he has potential.
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    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    In my experience, he works almost exactly like Kaldr.


    There's a few different points in the video where Argus just stops attacking a target without being commanded to do so, and he doesn't try to avoid Houyi's Sunbreaker when Hera is just out of range, leading to Argus dying due to poor AI rather than bad tactics. This isn't a problem for Kaldr because 1. he's untargetable when not attacking and 2. he stays on a target until he dies or you tell him to return to you. So, yeah, if they fix the AI and/or make him invincible when not ordered to pursue a target or pursuing an enemy who attacked Hera, he'll be a lot stronger; but without that, he'll suck monkey fuck.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post


    There's a few different points in the video where Argus just stops attacking a target without being commanded to do so, and he doesn't try to avoid Houyi's Sunbreaker when Hera is just out of range, leading to Argus dying due to poor AI rather than bad tactics. This isn't a problem for Kaldr because 1. he's untargetable when not attacking and 2. he stays on a target until he dies or you tell him to return to you. So, yeah, if they fix the AI and/or make him invincible when not ordered to pursue a target or pursuing an enemy who attacked Hera, he'll be a lot stronger; but without that, he'll suck monkey fuck.
    If you could provide some timestamps, because I'm not 'bout to watch 27 minutes of cringe to find out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    If you could provide some timestamps, because I'm not 'bout to watch 27 minutes of cringe to find out.
    11:29--Hera manages to kill Daji, so Argus begins to target the enemy Hera. However, for no apparent reason, he switches to a minion while pursuing her.

    15:45--Argus runs into the tower's range without provocation, causing him to be killed.

    17:02--Argus continues to try to kill Daji while she is untargetable.

    18:29--Hera is not attacked, but Argus runs back into the fight anyway.

    22:56--Argus runs into Sunbreaker and dies.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    11:29--Hera manages to kill Daji, so Argus begins to target the enemy Hera. However, for no apparent reason, he switches to a minion while pursuing her.
    You mean when the player sends him onto the minion because he's bad and can't land the targeter on the enemy Hera that Argus was already attacking?

    15:45--Argus runs into the tower's range without provocation, causing him to be killed.
    Player sent him to attack the minion. Minion died, Argus, still in Attacc mode goes to fite the next minion. Minion dies. Etc.

    Causing the net effect being that Argus dances in Phoenix range and dies.

    17:02--Argus continues to try to kill Daji while she is untargetable.
    Well, that's because he was sic'd onto Da Ji.

    Had he been called back, or sic'd onto someone else, he wouldn't do that.

    18:29--Hera is not attacked, but Argus runs back into the fight anyway.
    I can't tell exactly, but it looks like the player is spamming the skill and might have accidentally sent him into attacc mode on that 1hp minion that comes to hit Hera.

    22:56--Argus runs into Sunbreaker and dies.
    That one is the only one that isn't actually 100% player error.

    But it seems that due to Argus' speed and the Hera player stuttering, he ends up following her and being ahead. So when the Sunbreaker comes down, he's in it while Hera is not.

    Doesn't help that the dude popped his shield (Thus giving a 50% speed bonus to Argus) while Argus was running TOWARDS it, but that's something that's hard to predict.

    So yeah, all in all, what you've shown with that video, is that Hi-Rez needs to improve the AI on players.
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    Hera’s presence

    So with Hera on the way and her possibly being my new main mage, there are some things that are already bothering me. First off is the fact that Hera is always standing alone, I feel like Argus should be at her side at all times, just like Kaldr and Skadi, but Argus in this case shouldn’t do anything (but follow Hera) but just stand there until Hera ults and he crashes down. Argus could be transparent or a different color or something to recognise he can’t do anything in contrary to being active when she ults. I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that Hera is such an important leader and figure in mythology and she’s just pretty much always alone on the battlefield except when she ults.

    Another point I wanted to make is her one. Now with this ability, whenever you hit enemies right in the middle of the rectangle (where fists appear) you deal more damage right. Wouldn’t it be more rewarding for actually skilled players that manage to pull this off, that Hera will stun them as well. It doesn’t need to be a long stun, but long enough for you to hit polymorph after that. I feel like Hera has no cc outside her ult (knock up) and a very short silence. Her polymorph doesn’t do anything but silence and disarm someone. They can just walk away and escape since there isn’t a slow or a stun.

    Third ability looks great, also combined with her ult.

    Yeah that’s it for me what do you guys think?

  9. #29
    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    You mean when the player sends him onto the minion because he's bad and can't land the targeter on the enemy Hera that Argus was already attacking?
    Look closely and you'll see that the blue eye symbol which appears over a marked target isn't on a minion when Argus goes for it. He's initially chasing Hera, and Trelli does nothing to make him change targets.

    Player sent him to attack the minion. Minion died, Argus, still in Attacc mode goes to fite the next minion. Minion dies. Etc.

    Causing the net effect being that Argus dances in Phoenix range and dies.
    I think you saw Khepri's Solar Flare, which was blue because he was using the lobster skin, and thought it was the Argus mark. Trelli actuall didn't select a target for Argus; the dumbass just ran in on his own.

    Well, that's because he was sic'd onto Da Ji.

    Had he been called back, or sic'd onto someone else, he wouldn't do that.
    But he shouldn't try to attack a target he can't attack in the first place.

    I can't tell exactly, but it looks like the player is spamming the skill and might have accidentally sent him into attacc mode on that 1hp minion that comes to hit Hera.
    Again, Trelli never even tried to select anyone. Argus just did his own thing.

    So yeah, all in all, what you've shown with that video, is that Hi-Rez needs to improve the AI on players.
    I know nothing about whether Trelli is actually remotely decent or not, but I can say that even if he's a complete idiot, he's not responsible for Argus fucking up in this vid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    Look closely and you'll see that the blue eye symbol which appears over a marked target isn't on a minion when Argus goes for it. He's initially chasing Hera, and Trelli does nothing to make him change targets.
    Look closely and you can actually see the guy move the targeter for sending Argus onto someone over towards Hera and then land it on the minion.

    The blue eye doesn't come up, but what's more likely - The blue eye is bugged on the particular PTS patch this video was taken from when targetting minions. OR somehow Hi-Rez fucked up Argus' AI really badly (When both Kaldr and Nu Wa's minions aren't as stupid as you're suggesting Argus is)

    I think you saw Khepri's Solar Flare, which was blue because he was using the lobster skin, and thought it was the Argus mark. Trelli actuall didn't select a target for Argus; the dumbass just ran in on his own.
    Again, you can literally see the guy pull up the targeter, then move it onto the minion.

    But he shouldn't try to attack a target he can't attack in the first place.
    But that's how player controlled AI works. It's the exact same for Kaldr and Nu Wa's stone soldiers.

    If you're not shit, then you can avoid situations like this by controlling the AI.

    Again, Trelli never even tried to select anyone. Argus just did his own thing.
    Yet again, you can literally see him with the targeter up. Then Argus runs and slams down the 1hp minion, then goes off and does his thing.

    Very reminiscent to sending him to attacc mode.

    Very identical to how Kaldr works.


    I know nothing about whether Trelli is actually remotely decent or not, but I can say that even if he's a complete idiot, he's not responsible for Argus fucking up in this vid.
    Literally this guy's inability to control Argus is why all but one of the fuck ups happened (The one he didn't directly cause, he didn't do anything to help either... He could have called him back or even just turned to the right)

    At best, maybe Argus needs a tighter leash when on protecc mode, as he will assist onto targets you damage as well as having a fairly large radius that he will go after and start attacking nearby hostiles.

    But otherwise, every single fuck up in this video can be fixed easily by having someone who controls Argus better playing the god.
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