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Thread: 'Arena Mains' are a thing. Why isn't 'Ranked Arena?'

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    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitniss View Post
    "People still won't want to" You do realize that they will no longer have a choice right?
    That won't stop them from turtling. As I've said, playing defense gives you the advantage in Arena. There's almost no room to gank, sneak around, run off into the jungle and lose enemies so you can regroup--it's just an open field. In fact, by taking away points from minions, you remove the possibility of one team getting ahead through minion kills, which forces the other team to have to go on the offense to catch up. Your supposed solution makes things worse.
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    Member Worshipper Caitniss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    You still haven't addressed the fact that playing defensive is still the superior choice.

    Meaning, 2 hour long games while both teams turtle and wait for the enemy to engage...

    Now, without minions to even entice some sort of action out of people (Also, god picks), you've just further pushed the mode into AFK simulator.

    Since, if it's Ranked, people will do whatever it takes to win.

    Even if it means playing boring and turtling up in a mode that's supposed to be entertaining because constant 5v5 teamfighting.
    I never said they should remove minions from the game. You are misinterpreting. Minions are necessary for exp and stacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    That won't stop them from turtling. As I've said, playing defense gives you the advantage in Arena. There's almost no room to gank, sneak around, run off into the jungle and lose enemies so you can regroup--it's just an open field. In fact, by taking away points from minions, you remove the possibility of one team getting ahead through minion kills, which forces the other team to have to go on the offense to catch up. Your supposed solution makes things worse.
    Both of you are implying that initiating a teamfight means inevitably losing it. People are capable of initiating a teamfight and winning it, and they will if they'll truly do whatever it takes to win. You're making it seem so much harder than it is. I've been in serious arena games because both teams were experienced and both were full premades. That's not how it works. People don't *always* stare at each other for 2 hours lmao. You're assuming things. Stop.
    Last edited by Caitniss; 10-04-2018 at 07:38 PM. Reason: added *always* because it does happen, but it doesn't mean that people always will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitniss View Post
    Both of you are implying that initiating a teamfight means inevitably losing it. People are capable of initiating a teamfight and winning it, and they will if they'll truly do whatever it takes to win. You're making it seem so much harder than it is. I've been in serious arena games because both teams were experienced and both were full premades. That's not how it works. People don't stare at each other for 2 hours lmao. You're assuming things. Stop.
    We're not saying playing offense means you lose. We're saying everyone turtled because defense was--and is--advantageous. You say "people don't stare at each other for 2 hours" when history proves that they absolutely did. Ranked Arena was a turtlefest before, and it will be again. We're making our assumptions based on things that have actually happened, while you're doing so based on games you've had with premades, which not everyone's going to have.
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    Member Worshipper Caitniss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    We're not saying playing offense means you lose. We're saying everyone turtled because defense was--and is--advantageous. You say "people don't stare at each other for 2 hours" when history proves that they absolutely did. Ranked Arena was a turtlefest before, and it will be again. We're making our assumptions based on things that have actually happened, while you're doing so based on games you've had with premades, which not everyone's going to have.
    They did it because they COULD. That's what this whole discussion is about. You COULD stare at each other until the game ended because the game still ended. If they changed that, you couldn't do it anymore. The game would never end. You would never win. You are making assumptions based on what happened without any of my suggestions implemented. Which makes them completely baseless assumptions that don't correlate whatsoever to my suggestions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitniss View Post
    They did it because they COULD. That's what this whole discussion is about. You COULD stare at each other until the game ended because the game still ended. If they changed that, you couldn't do it anymore. The game would never end. You would never win. You are making assumptions based on what happened without any of my suggestions implemented. Which makes them completely baseless assumptions that don't correlate whatsoever to my suggestions.
    You have proposed one solution, and I've explained why it wouldn't work. Until you have a better idea, then by all means, share it; but you've no grounds on which to assert that ranked Arena can work until you explain how it can be made to work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    You have proposed one solution, and I've explained why it wouldn't work. Until you have a better idea, then by all means, share it; but you've no grounds on which to assert that ranked Arena can work until you explain how it can be made to work.
    You explained nothing. You made assumptions. And you refuse to acknowledge that they're baseless in this argument because it's not even possible for people to do nothing if the game would never end.

    I specifically said that I want this for casual arena. It's a flaw in the game mode, not just ranked. I don't want them to make changes in arena just so we can have a ranked arena. I want them to make changes so that the game mode itself can be what it's meant to be - a team deathmatch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitniss View Post
    You explained nothing. You made assumptions.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    That won't stop them from turtling. As I've said, playing defense gives you the advantage in Arena. There's almost no room to gank, sneak around, run off into the jungle and lose enemies so you can regroup--it's just an open field. In fact, by taking away points from minions, you remove the possibility of one team getting ahead through minion kills, which forces the other team to have to go on the offense to catch up. Your supposed solution makes things worse.
    What's this? I made an explanation? Hm...

    And you refuse to acknowledge that they're baseless in this argument because it's not even possible for people to do nothing if the game would never end.
    But they're not baseless. Rel explained that if minions don't incite action to start with, it's basically a long staring contest until one team stops turtling; at which point, they forfeit the defender's advantage. What you suggest doesn't eliminate turtling, it just slows the game down because minions prompt teamfighting when one team is short on tickets, and the mode is still slow.
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    Member Worshipper Caitniss's Avatar
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    You're making assumptions based on the turtling that people did when they knew they could get away with it. The stare-off was the result of knowing that the game would end in 20-30 minutes regardless. People won't sit on their keyboards forever if the scoreboard never changes.

    There are so many ways to initiate a teamfight without putting yourself in imminent danger. It's not the end of the world if your team has to initiate.

    My suggestions are primarily for casual arena. If you're familiar with the casual arena population, then you probably know that they're aggressive and impatient. I don't know how you can imagine the casual arena crowd constantly going through long stare-offs just for a possible advantage. We don't have that kind of self control.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitniss View Post
    You're making assumptions based on the turtling that people did when they knew they could get away with it. The stare-off was the result of knowing that the game would end in 20-30 minutes regardless. People won't sit on their keyboards forever if the scoreboard never changes.
    They weren't turtling because the game was going to end anyway, they were turtling for an advantage. What you suggest only slows down the game.

    There are so many ways to initiate a teamfight without putting yourself in imminent danger. It's not the end of the world if your team has to initiate.
    This doesn't mean turtling is less effective than playing offense in Arena. Again, it's not Conquest. There's nowhere to gank from when everyone's in the middle of the map.

    My suggestions are primarily for casual arena. If you're familiar with the casual arena population, then you probably know that they're aggressive and impatient. I don't know how you can imagine the casual arena crowd constantly going through long stare-offs just for a possible advantage. We don't have that kind of self control.
    Well, this thread is about ranked Arena. If you want to improve the mode overall, that's one thing; but making it suitable for a ranked environment is what this topic ultimately boils down to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    They weren't turtling because the game was going to end anyway, they were turtling for an advantage. What you suggest only slows down the game.
    You do realize that if both teams are turtling the entire time, that means that neither has a certain advantage over the other. They have equal scores and equal advantage. They were taking advantage of the game mode allowing them to passively pve for 30 minutes out of laziness.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    This doesn't mean turtling is less effective than playing offense in Arena. Again, it's not Conquest. There's nowhere to gank from when everyone's in the middle of the map.
    Hercules. Tanks with knock-ups + Awilix. Tanks like Cerb and Xing Tian + blink. Long range pokes. There are so many things you can do if you have just a tiny window in which their positioning is off. It doesn't matter how difficult or risky it is. Someone has to do it, so they will.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    Well, this thread is about ranked Arena. If you want to improve the mode overall, that's one thing; but making it suitable for a ranked environment is what this topic ultimately boils down to.
    Improving the game mode overall is the first step in making it suitable for ranked. I honestly don't know if ever will be. Right now though, it's so flawed that it's basically pure pve if people want it to be. Which is the entire opposite of the point of it.

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