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Thread: 'Arena Mains' are a thing. Why isn't 'Ranked Arena?'

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some1Guy View Post
    Untried idea and a immediate opposing biased response with a questionable strawman train of thought.
    Your rejection is disagreed with... i think the opposite.
    It's not biased, and I'd love for you to explain how in the world it's a strawman.

    It's relevant to the notion that your idea of fun and my idea of fun may not be the same thing ?
    Thus making it very relevant to your notion of fun and boring being, the only defacto, universal, one fits all, for everyone else.
    Your idea of fun is just sitting around waiting for something to happen? That's not even a game at that point.

    Also, you discussed how MM worked in old games, not what "fun" entails.

    Ya in conquest, what do you call sitting in a lane killing minions, for the first 10 to 15 minutes ?
    Non turtleing ?
    If you think that's what Conq is actually like, you don't understand it very well. If you're not trying to gank, poke, or avoid pressure, you're just farming, and that does nothing. Playing defense isn't ideal; you can gank or have teammates gank for you; you can get enemies under your tower or force them under theirs to add pressure. Arena doesn't have secondary objectives like towers (super minions don't really count, they're just bigger minions) or areas you can gank from and lose pursuers in. This is why Conq is not a turtlefest where ranked Arena was.

    Arena is just about over by then and you have had 10x as many serious engagements in even a defense match in that time. Which is why i don't play conquest it really is boring as hell and drawn way out it lasts forever just for the end game. Even worse when your mm that is a non factor makes it one sided or you get feeders or worse a troll it becomes unbearably long.
    Again, history proves that in a ranked setting, you're completely wrong there.

    How about defending from tower ? Big difference from...
    Defending at base ?
    Towers don't have protective walls, they don't heal you, and they can be used as a trap. You will also gradually lose HP on your tower even if you play defense, if very slowly. So, yeah, big difference.

    Worse under the current meta the problem in arena is there is like ZERO turtleing now you can say the problem is that there is no turtleing at all.
    Arena hasn't changed very much since its original ranked mode existed. It's similar enough to how it was then that the old issues will just crop up again.
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    Member Worshipper Caitniss's Avatar
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    My suggestion wasn't meant to make turtling impossible. That's a whole new discussion because almost every game mode has that problem.

    The only difference with arena is that you can actually end the game without either team ever having to make a move. You can end a match in arena, the supposedly "pure pvp" game mode, after doing nothing but pve for 30 minutes. That's arena's unique problem.

    If you want to suggest something to end turtling, be my guest.

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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Some1Guy's Avatar
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    My suggestion wasn't meant to make turtling impossible. That's a whole new discussion because almost every game mode has that problem.
    Well then one team can sit in base and no one wins, i think that is their argument.

    You have to have a way to force the win and a fight, which is the other argument.

    Which is in essence true,
    The last thing anyone wants is 3 trolls sitting in base.
    With no way to end the match unless they come out.

    I guess you could make it so sitting in base makes you start to lose points too, after some amount of time.
    Then there is no need for minions to be worth anything you have to come out and you have to kill for a win.


    Finally they have the argument that people in ranked arena will turtle cause its ranked as opposed to casual were they will lose. That these situations don't occur in other ranked modes just ranked arena ?
    So no one would play ranked arena ?
    The reality in casual however is as they like to say "its casual" this is after they dive in vs 4 dudes alone and die


    So anyways in ranked as opposed to casual you can sit behind base and clear minion waves and no one wins.
    Which means you can also do that in casual as well. Which we all know no one does. Normally you might have one competent person stuck clearing them and i do mean stuck doing it. As mages Not clearing minions in casual is also a thing. Lets say this is a thing in ranked clearing from base after you get a lead and people start doing it and just sitting behind base.

    What does this prove ?

    .
    It's not biased, and I'd love for you to explain how in the world it's a strawman.
    .

    This just makes the argument for needing minions to have win loss value ... hollow.
    You can't have it both ways these ideas are mutually exclusive, either...

    A) They are necessary to force people to not turtle because they must be cleared.

    B) They are not necessary because you can sit behind the base and clear them.


    If B) is true this means proposition A) cannot be true.


    If the later is true then only the siege minion should matter as it cant be one shotted from behind base.
    It should be worth quite a bit so that a few people die-ing to kill it maybe even worth the sacrifice.
    If it is worth die-ing to stop it or push it in, then people will die to do so even in ranked.
    If it can't be one shotted from behind base that leaves one choice.


    But as was said the problem isn't with turtling in casual its the completely lack of defense due to the saturation of the for fun crowd. Part of the problem is good players have to waste time clearing minions as it is while the players who are the worst just run past them and die without better players to save them because its casual mode pve arena which is supposed to be pvp tdm. Opposition to ranked i would expect to be from the for fun crowd. As well as the "its casual crowd" who love to say "so go play ranked" i always think ya if i don't like you feeding i should have to go to a non existent ranked arena.

    Seems to me opposition is instead coming from people who just don't play it either way.
    Last edited by Some1Guy; 10-05-2018 at 08:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitniss View Post
    If you want to suggest something to end turtling, be my guest.
    I did a thonk and it occurs to me that what you suggested is half of a solution. Minions being the secondary objective to encourage offense clearly doesn't work. However, there needs to be something that encourages fights to begin. Both teams need to be punished for not fighting, and the first thing that popped into my head was that tickets would automatically decrease over time for each team, dropping faster and faster until a player died; at which point, one team is behind in tickets, incentivising them to fight so they can catch up. If both teams lose all of their tickets--that is, both teams refused to fight--neither one wins, meaning someone has to go on the offensive sooner rather than later.

    It's not necessarily a good solution, but it's an idea I had that may or may not be a step in the right direction. I can already see that this may encourage teams to wait until the tickets get super low to start fighting so they can get like one kill and immediately win, so that could be a problem; but that depends on whether such a strategy would actually be optimal in practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Some1Guy View Post
    Finally they have the argument that people in ranked arena will turtle cause its ranked as opposed to casual were they will lose. That these situations don't occur in other ranked modes just ranked arena ?
    Considering that ranked Arena was removed because teams would turtle and other modes haven't been removed for that reason...yeah.

    So no one would play ranked arena ?
    The reality in casual however is as they like to say "its casual" this is after they dive in vs 4 dudes alone and die

    So anyways in ranked as opposed to casual you can sit behind base and clear minion waves and no one wins.
    Which means you can also do that in casual as well. Which we all know no one does. Normally you might have one competent person stuck clearing them and i do mean stuck doing it. Lets say this is a thing in ranked and people start doing it and just sitting behind base.

    What does this prove ?
    A better question would be this: why are you even bothering to ask this question when, in the days when Arena had a ranked scene, people turtled anyway? It happened once and it'll happen again unless the mode is reworked.

    You can't have it both ways these ideas are mutually exclusive, either...

    A) They are necessary to force people to not turtle.

    B) They are not necessary because you can sit behind the base and clear them.
    You've misunderstood. They're the only pressure that encourages fights to begin in the first place because one team may let a few slip through the cracks or something, making the point count uneven. Removing that pressure worsens turtling. HOWEVER, they're clearly not enough to stop turtling as it stands, as seen when ranked Arena existed. They don't solve the problem, but their absence would make it worse.

    But as was said the problem isn't with turtling in casual its the completely lack of defense due to the saturation of the for fun crowd. Opposition to ranked i would expect to be from the for fun crowd. As well as the "its casual crowd" who love to say "so go play ranked" i always think ya if i don't like you feeding i should have to go to a non existent ranked arena.

    Seems to me opposition is instead coming from people who just don't play it either way.
    This thread isn't about what ails casual Arena in particular, it's about whether or not the mode can go ranked. The fact is, as we know from when it was tried, it was turtley as fuck. Like, we're talking seasons 1-4 in For Honor levels of turtley. The opposition is from people who don't want queues further divided by a mode that wouldn't even be any good. If Arena is improved, then we can talk about a ranked version.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some1Guy View Post
    Ya in conquest, what do you call sitting in a lane killing minions, for the first 15 minutes ?
    Non turtleing ?
    That's called laning.

    You go and you punch minions until your team is strong enough to teamfight.

    Meanwhile, your Jungler tries to gank and your support/mid rotate to assist in any larger fights that may occur.

    It's not turtling unless it's something like a solo laner or Hunter that's getting pressured under their own tower and need to freeze the waves to try and get some safe farm.

    Not a particularly common scenario, but one that does exist and is the only time when the laning phase can be considered "Turtling"


    Quote Originally Posted by Some1Guy View Post
    Well then one team can sit in base and no one wins, i think that is their argument.

    You have to have a way to force the win and a fight, which is the other argument.
    The arguments are:

    Minions not contributing to tickets doesn't do anything to make Ranked Arena more fun or engaging than when it was last tried. Which was a complete turtle-fest. In fact, all it does is make things worse, because you don't then have a timer that forces the game end by way of tickets being taken when clearing the minions which will at the very least force a team to try and get an advantage during the last stages of a game.

    Without this threat of games finishing, people could literally sit around for hours staring at the opponent waiting for an engagement to occur. As there is literally nothing else in the mode to prompt people to do anything.

    Finally they have the argument that people in ranked arena will turtle cause its ranked as opposed to casual were they will lose. That these situations don't occur in other ranked modes just ranked arena ?
    Other Ranked Modes don't have such a heavy amount of turtling because they actually have objectives that give a big advantage if a team secures them. So it means that instead of sitting in a safe place under tower/in the fountain, you're forced to go and contest said objective otherwise the other team will roll over you with its power.

    In Joust, if someone gets the Bull Demon King, then your tower/Phoenix are literally useless as they're disabled. This means that the team can push through and take a fight in your "Safe" place with bonus regen. Making turtling not viable long term.

    In Conquest, if a team takes Gold Fury they can get far ahead with gold and get enough items to be able to fight you in your "Safe" place even with the structure their to aid you. Alternatively, they can get the Fire Giant, which gives them a buff that provides bonus power, regen and a significant boost to structure damage, letting them very easily remove your tower/phoenix advantage and then take a fight with boosted stats (If combined with a large gold lead from GF's that have been taken uncontested since you were turtling then there's no chance of you being able to fight back)

    In arena, there's nothing to lose from turtling. No objectives of note, the only one that might have an impact only spawns after 10 kills and so is rendered non-existant by turtling. Meaning, there's no reason to push forward, no place to catch someone out who's rotating to an objective literally nothing to make people not want to take the advantageous defensive position.

    So no one would play ranked arena ?
    More than likely. It would just get scrapped again due to poor feedback.

    So anyways in ranked as opposed to casual you can sit behind base and clear minion waves and no one wins.
    It's not that no-one wins.

    It's that the mode boils down to turtling for 90% of the game and then a single teamfight is the only PvP that happens and the winner takes the game.

    Why? Because there's no incentive to not do that. That method gives the highest chance of success, since instead of needing to continuously trade kills or outplay to the point of going ahead in kills for a large portion of the game, you only need to win a single fight. Heck, a single kill is enough to tip the tickets in your favour and let minions tickets finish things off (If we're assuming that both teams have taken 100% of the minion kills and so have equal tickets)

    What does this prove ?
    It proves that the mode is fundamentally flawed. That in its current iteration, it is simply only viable as a casual mode as that's the only time it's played as intended - Being a teamfight heavy clown fiesta.

    It proves that in order to allow for a Ranked Arena, the mode would need to undergo significant changes. Simply removing tickets from minions is not enough, there needs to be more than that. Things to deincentivise playing defensively all the time. Things to make the mode less snowbally. Things to make co-ordination and tactics more impactful.

    Otherwise, Ranked Arena is just going to be a pile of garbage like the last time it was tried.

    Seems to me opposition is instead coming from people who just don't play it either way.
    I have literally more than double the amount of time in Arena than you. That's in addition to playtime in multiple other modes too.

    I'd personally love to see a Ranked Arena, I feel it could be really fun to play.

    However, I'm not an idiot so I can actually see the flaws in the game mode as it stands.

    It just doesn't lend itself to being a fun and effective Ranked mode. Just like how Assault is also not suitable for a Ranked mode because its core design is just awful across the board for being a more serious competitive mode.
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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Some1Guy's Avatar
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    Well if i have gathered up all this information right then the main problem is...

    Base Camping not Turtle-ing.



    Turtling

    Actually means beefing yourself up with defense all game to build offense end game from behind your shell. Like a turtle moving slowly towards its goal.
    In fact it think it comes from strategy games were people would sit in base and just build defense.
    When a ally needed help or there was a window of opportunity to attack that person had nothing to send. For example like player 1 just fought off both player 3 and 4. That person. player ones ally has zero offensive assets to support or to counterattack as he is spending everything on static base defense turtleing.

    Basically his base looked like a shell tough to crack but completely immobile. So far behind on units he was actually no threat to any enemy and no help to his ally he is basically slow like a turtle in every way.
    You as his ally would say ... you are turtle-ing basically you are no help at all.
    See this person is building for end game but the enemy's get to double team his ally then him.


    Base camping

    Base camping is like in counter strike or other games were you sit at your base and hide you don't move and vs lowbies you actually have the advantage in reality if the enemy is good you are at a disadvantage as you are in a static twichy frame of thought. The waiting takes away your awareness and sort of tones down your mind. Here though it really is death to attack into a base as Arena is really a sort of ctf tdm hybrid.

    This is really like base camping with a glitch in smite because the minions act as a clock.




    Other games handle these scenarios in number of different ways.

    Give them the stick...

    What you could do is put a heat timer that builds up in the base and if you stay in base too long then your base camping timer overheats you. And you start to bleed points for your team. This means you cant stay in base forever to do anything be it kill minions or what ever.

    You could alternately say if the player stays in base and the timer over heats kick him out to the front of his base.
    This is more like the straight up Deathmatch way of doing things.

    Give them a carrot...

    You can make a position that you can stand on to slowly heat up and the enemy team loses points.
    This is basically the idea of capture the flag or the goal or the hill /s ect.
    You could make two positions so that if your enemy's just want to sit in base 2 of your guys can force them to bleed points.
    Basically so if they try that sit in there base crap after they get ahead then that tactic is no longer viable.

    You can make it a target you shoot to whittle down points this is how it is now in other modes in this game.
    Really im surprised that's not the way it is already i don't see anything wrong with having a single tower in front of your base just give it a crap ton of hp enough for a 18 minute game which is about the average arena match time.

    In games like counter strike its a unique type of mode for the main game.
    You get a bomb and you plant it now its a race to win.
    It gives someone on your team a bomb he plants it some where usually trying to hide it. Your team can attack or defend the bomb. If the other team defuses it before it goes off they win if it goes off before that you win.
    Something similar to this could force the other team out of the safe zone. Put it on the front of the enemy base and then it blows them out of there or they lose major points if they are camping and don't want to deal with it.

    I one old game i used to play objective areas were called points of contention or poc's the thing with these were if you got on it and stayed on it long enough it would go from neutral to your side.
    Having more meant the other team bleed points faster. The other team could retake them by standing on them just as long if not pushed off, this amounted to area control.

    All fine ideas but i think i like just having a siege minion that is worth a lot of loss points.
    Have the little minions worth nothing to the base points just for people to stack on ect.
    Put the seige minion on a 2 minute cool down timer.
    Minor change big effect.
    Last edited by Some1Guy; 10-05-2018 at 10:09 PM.

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    Ranked Arena failed because of how popular it was. If you had real skill all you did was arena, conquest players couldnt hack it. Divided the community and more flocked to arena. They got rid of it to bring Conquest numbers back up for the sack of being a serious MOBA.
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    Senior Member Prestigious zecleria's Avatar
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    yeah lets remove tickets from minions. that would totally make arena ranked viable /s

    i have an actually better suggestion. if you want competitive play why not go play the actual ranked modes? there are enough ranked modes already.

    while we are at it how about making it an instaban from forums to suggest arena ranked for people who did not play the game back when it was actually a thing? its boring to see totally baseless suggestions from people who have 0 idea what theyre talking about.
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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Some1Guy's Avatar
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    zecleria
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    Troll.

    yeah lets remove tickets from minions. that would totally make arena ranked viable /s
    Who didn't read anything in this topic ? ^^^^^

    i have an actually better suggestion. if you want competitive play why not go play the actual ranked modes?
    Little timmy don'tcha think... i would play other modes if i liked other modes.
    Other people like things you don't and dislike things you do ...

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    Calm down now, "Here's a cookie".

    while we are at it how about making it an instaban from forums to suggest arena ranked for people who did not play the game back when it was actually a thing? its boring to see totally baseless suggestions from people who have 0 idea what theyre talking about.
    Insta ban for bad baseless suggestions you say ? ^^^^

    there are enough ranked modes already.
    Your advice seems level headed and credible ...




    Ranked Arena failed because of how popular it was. If you had real skill all you did was arena, conquest players couldnt hack it. Divided the community and more flocked to arena. They got rid of it to bring Conquest numbers back up for the sack of being a serious MOBA.
    That would figure right in with a lot of things i have observed.
    Last edited by Some1Guy; 10-06-2018 at 06:11 PM.

  10. #50
    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some1Guy View Post
    Troll.
    By starting your post with unbacked accusations of trolling, you've basically lost all credibility.
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