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Thread: 'Arena Mains' are a thing. Why isn't 'Ranked Arena?'

  1. #31
    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitniss View Post
    You do realize that if both teams are turtling the entire time, that means that neither has a certain advantage over the other. They have equal scores and equal advantage. They were taking advantage of the game mode allowing them to passively pve for 30 minutes out of laziness.
    That's the case regardless of your supposed solution. If both teams turtle forever now, there's nothing stopping the tickets from going down evenly on both sides unless the minions make it uneven; in which case, one team has to initiate. Taking away points from minions means it becomes a staring contest until one team loses their patience.

    Hercules. Tanks with knock-ups + Awilix. Tanks like Cerb and Xing Tian + blink. Long range pokes. There are so many things you can do if you have just a tiny window in which their positioning is off. It doesn't matter how difficult or risky it is. Someone has to do it, so they will.
    And yet, in the old Arena, people still turtled despite this. We've had Herc for a long-ass time. Awilix is also an old god. Still, ranked Arena was a turtlefest even with pressure from minions.

    Improving the game mode overall is the first step in making it suitable for ranked. I honestly don't know if ever will be.[/QUOTE]

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  2. #32
    The Mad Hatter Chosen Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitniss View Post
    You do realize that if both teams are turtling the entire time, that means that neither has a certain advantage over the other. They have equal scores and equal advantage. They were taking advantage of the game mode allowing them to passively pve for 30 minutes out of laziness.
    And yet, people still often turtle in Assault.

    Meaning that both teams just sit there staring at each other, amassing gold they cannot spend.

    Turtling just has more advantages than initiation, especially when you can just take a good counter-initiation comp (Such as, have a Hel who has her AoE cleanse basic skill and render "Strong Initiators" like Cerb/Ares/Xing Tian literally useless)

    Minions giving tickets forces people to engage, because not only do they try to seek an advantage in tickets from getting them cleared/preventing the enemy from clearing but also because it means having someone move up enough to use an ability to clear the minions in the first place (Opening up an initiation potential)

    It's one of the drawbacks to Assault, there's literally no reason to step out from your tower. Minions mean nothing. You're not gonna passively push the lane because so many gods insta-clear waves anyway. The only thing stopping several hour long Assault games are the fact that it's casual so people don't care enough to be patient and will eventually get bored and yolo.

    Improving the game mode overall is the first step in making it suitable for ranked. I honestly don't know if ever will be. Right now though, it's so flawed that it's basically pure pve if people want it to be. Which is the entire opposite of the point of it.
    At which point we go back to the initial statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    In order to make a Ranked Arena not be a huge turtle fest, they'd have to somehow make it so that you're not incentivised to turtle at all and that would require way too big an overhaul to really be viable
    The statement you had issue with, because you thought that a "Simple" solution of making minions no longer give tickets would be enough to change the game mode to the point where turtling wasn't the optimal strategy for a Ranked Arena.

    Casual Arena, doesn't give a shit about minions because people don't play to win, they play to fight. You don't often see much turtling in casual because win or lose doesn't mean much it's more about having fun as a casual mode and that means teamfighting.

    However, this thread is about Ranked Arena, which of course, due to people playing to win, will take any advantage they can. Which can mean sitting around for 2 hours staring at the enemy team until they make a mistake if that's what will give them their precious ranked points, then so be it.

    This is evidenced by both the previous Ranked Arena (Where they turtled and cleared minions) as well as other modes where people can and do turtle up (Such as Assault and to an extent Joust, albeit Joust at least has the Bull Demon King to force an engagement around) where people don't get any closer to the game ending while turtling.
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    Member Follower GoIdschuss's Avatar
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    I think the whole Arena mode concept is outdated.

    If I see an "Arena" today, then that means that there are no towers or minions, and a storm enclosing the Arena gradually over time, forcing the people to centralise, similar to the battle royale games.

    Of course this means there wouldn't be a shop anymore and no real objectives, just pure fighting. But honestly, that nails the definition of an "Arena" much mure accuratly.

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    Member Worshipper Diamondrainn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisMiles View Post
    No my statement is that NOW arena is ruined mostly by people who come in, troll and ignore the match to the point of ridiculousness, and then say 'eh it's arena, who cares?' Those are the epeen trolls I was talking about.
    Well that's part of the casualness of Arena and it will just attract those people who just want a simple play. However, most of them do it for shits and giggles really. To say the least, it does ruin the game and a player's time. But most of the time, it's mainly horrible players who don't know how to work as a team that is even more frustrating than dealing with trolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoIdschuss View Post
    I think the whole Arena mode concept is outdated.

    If I see an "Arena" today, then that means that there are no towers or minions, and a storm enclosing the Arena gradually over time, forcing the people to centralise, similar to the battle royale games.

    Of course this means there wouldn't be a shop anymore and no real objectives, just pure fighting. But honestly, that nails the definition of an "Arena" much mure accuratly.
    I do agree. Arena is definitely outdated but it does serve a purpose to those who don't take it objectives seriously, and who prefer a more simplicity of pvp.
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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Some1Guy's Avatar
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    It's clear most of the people commenting in here don't play arena mainly.
    If you don't play it why are you commenting on what wont work in it ?

    Maybe we can use reasoning and speculate on motives or baseless counter assumptions.

    Both of you are implying that initiating a teamfight means inevitably losing it.
    People are capable of initiating a teamfight and winning it .
    They will if they'll truly do whatever it takes to win.
    You're making it seem so much harder than it is.


    You guys say it is turtling because you are feeders and hur dur divers yourselves.
    **Ding**
    You really don't know how to initiate against good enemy's.
    **Ding**
    You can't dive in hurr durr without trash opponents that don't play right.
    **Ding**

    Isn't that the truth ?
    Isn't that why you like it the way it is ?
    You don't want to think you want to... button mash.
    You don't want challenge you want a enemy that you can... seal club.

    .

    What is meant exactly by Turtling ?

    You don't feed if you want to win period, you withdraw if you feel you will be killed.
    You don't fully engage unless there is a high probability of a kill coming out of it.
    Please explain to me in which of your RANKED PRO Modes this is not a fundamental truth ?
    If it is true for all...
    The end result is a low death game since everyone is crossing their T's and doting their I's, no matter the mode.

    A previous poster exclaimed.

    I've been in serious arena games because both teams were experienced and both were full premades. That's not how it works. People don't *always* stare at each other for 2 hours lmao.
    You're assuming things. Stop.
    ^^^ Exactly this

    The rarity of seeing a good arena match nowdays is about 1 in god knows how many games.
    You can play for days without seeing two full good teams and a low death count match.
    Which maybe "fun" for hurrr durrr low iq boy, but to me ... it sucks.

    If its really as easy as slapping a ranked name on it and magically i will get good teamates and good enemy's from this mm that would be heaven but i seriously doubt it.
    Arena is one big team fight all game and end game in any mode is guess what .... ? .... one big team fight.
    Do they all turtle end game in every mode ?
    .
    .
    .

    Ill digress to say, actually removing the points for the minions is probably not just a good idea....

    It is a GREAT idea.
    Last edited by Some1Guy; 10-05-2018 at 04:04 PM.

  6. #36
    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some1Guy View Post
    a lot of words that really only say "yur dumdum lul"
    Everything about this post simply indicates a lack of comprehension of what's been posted in this thread. You're just calling everyone else bad because you don't have anything to really back up your point.
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    The Mad Hatter Chosen Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some1Guy View Post
    Do they all turtle end game in every mode ?
    No, because Conquest (The only other game mode that doesn't feature a ton of turtling. Outside Seige but lelelelel who plays that? xD) has Gold Fury and Fire Giant to force people out of turtling because otherwise the opponent will get a massive advantage and then just walk through all the towers/phoenix and murder your face and then your titan's face.

    Siege itself has the Siege Giants that come barrelling down a lane and FORCE you to do something because if you just turtle, they'll end up beating up your titan alongside the enemy team.

    At the moment, Arena doesn't have anything that threatening to force people out of defensive positions. Only the minions and the occasional Arena Juggernaut dude (Which is predicated on getting 10 kills to spawn... But if you're turtling, you're not dying so no kills = no Juggernaut). Which means, when people play to win, not to play to have fun (Since even pre-mades will play Arena to have fun) they will turtle up. As we have already seen back when Ranked Arena existed. As we continue to see in Assault and Joust (Even as casual games, people will still turtle for like 10+ minutes in Assault until someone gets bored and leaves or goes Rambo)
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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Some1Guy's Avatar
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    Ya in conquest, what do you call sitting in a lane killing minions, for the first 15 minutes ?
    Non turtleing ?
    How about defending from tower big difference from...
    Defending from base ?

    If the big problem is people using ability's to kill minions in base then dissallow ability use from within base.
    However i rather think that the other poster has a good point as this indicates the minions being worth points is the problem.
    Being immediately dismissive of the idea seems pompous to me at best and the more thought i give it, the more it seems like, it is actually a very good idea. You could drop out the points for minions and spawn a siege minion on a timer that is worth points and is not killable with just a skill shot from behind base.
    But this is beside the real point.



    This mm is why you can't comprehend my words.
    The inability to play with similar people or to group with people at your own level.



    So let me put it into a scenario you can get.

    Back in the day games had server rooms they would come up in a main list as rooms you could join.
    People would post their room names and similar players would congregate in those rooms.

    People in the lowbie rooms never cared what room they went into.
    They just wanted to hur durr into a game as fast as they could.

    People in some server rooms who maintained some level of standard would boot you for hur durr play in other words ban you vote kick you.
    The result was people in those rooms were people who tried that was pretty much the bottom line.
    You didnt have to be great.
    But you did have to at least be bar minimum not suicidal or trolling.

    So after being kicked trolls and feeders could hur durr in a hurr durr room with their mates.
    There were far far more lowbie and pub rooms then normal or leet rooms.

    You didn't need to form a five man group to have mm stick your five man group against hur durr players to win. You didn't need to pray to mm if you decided to solo.
    You did need to play at least like you knew that holding your w key down at the enemy till you died repeatedly would get you vote kicked.
    You did have to catch a known room with enough people in it to get matches going.

    You joined a room full of people who wanted a fun challenging game without being forced to play with ...
    It's fun to lose players.
    Or it's fun to have mechanics, designed to force us all to play in a ... hur durrr manner.
    You joined a room of good to decent players your team and the opposing team, at the very least players that were trying and knew the basic rules.

    I doubt you can understand, but i can only dumb it down so much.

    .
    .

    I am just trying to get my favorite mode out of the forced busing to the lowbie zone.
    Were playing with intelligence is currently considered Turtleing or Unfun.

    At least this seems to be what im reading here.

    MM in truth is a faster yet inferior degenerate system to what used to be.
    It is quantity over quality and the arguments here against any kind of ranked.
    Just proves we need some sort of separation more then ever.
    Do i believe ranked will fix things, no, it might be a improvement though.
    Because with mm every game is in the lowbie room no exceptions.
    Last edited by Some1Guy; 10-05-2018 at 05:43 PM.

  9. #39
    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some1Guy View Post
    However i rather think that the other poster has a good point as this indicates the minions being worth points is the problem. You could drop out the points for minions and spawn a siege minion on a timer that is worth points and is not killable with just a skill shot from behind base.
    Rel and I already explained why that would actually make things worse.

    This mm is why you can't comprehend my words.
    The inability to play with similar people or to group with people at your own level.
    You're assuming that's the only reason without any real evidence that it is.

    So let me put it into a scenario you can get.

    [some stuff about game lobbies]

    I doubt you can understand, but i can only dumb it down so much.
    None of this is relevant to Arena. Smite's not changing its lobby system any time soon, so the game itself needs to be fixed.

    I am just trying to get my favorite mode out of the forced busing to the durrr zone.
    Were playing with intelligence is currently considered Turtleing or Unfun darrr.
    At least this seems to be what im reading here.
    Playing defense and refusing to attack is what "turtling" refers to. That's not fun game design.

    MM in truth is a faster yet inferior degenerate system to what used to be.
    It is quantity over quality and the arguments here against any kind of ranked.
    Just prove we need some sort of separation more then ever.
    Because with mm every game is in the lowbie room no exceptions.
    And yet not every mode sees heavy turtling, Conq being the most notable one, in spite of the state of MM. This means that removing turtling falls upon improving the game mode itself, not reworking MM again (which we all know HR is incapable of doing right).
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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Some1Guy's Avatar
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    Rel and I already explained why that would actually make things worse.
    Untried idea and a immediate opposing biased response with a questionable strawman train of thought.
    Your rejection is disagreed with... i think the opposite.

    None of this is relevant to Arena. Smite's not changing its lobby system any time soon, so the game itself needs to be fixed.
    It's relevant to the notion that your idea of fun and my idea of fun may not be the same thing ?
    Thus making it very relevant to your notion of fun and boring being, the only defacto, universal, one fits all, for everyone else.

    And yet not every mode sees heavy turtling, Conq being the most notable one, in spite of the state of MM. This means that removing turtling falls upon improving the game mode itself, not reworking MM again (which we all know HR is incapable of doing right).
    Ya in conquest, what do you call sitting in a lane killing minions, for the first 10 to 15 minutes ?
    Non turtleing ?

    Arena is just about over by then and you have had 10x as many serious engagements in even a defense match in that time. Which is why i don't play conquest it really is boring as hell and drawn way out it lasts forever just for the end game. Even worse when your mm that is a non factor makes it one sided or you get feeders or worse a troll it becomes unbearably long.

    How about defending from tower ? Big difference from...
    Defending at base ?

    Playing defense and refusing to attack is what "turtling" refers to. That's not fun game design.
    Then under the current meta the problem in arena is there is like ZERO turtleing now you can say the problem is that there is no turtleing at all.
    Last edited by Some1Guy; 10-05-2018 at 06:33 PM.

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