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Thread: Stacking Items and Last Hits

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    The Mad Hatter Prestigious Relanah's Avatar
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    Stacking Items and Last Hits

    So, stacking items are becoming more and more prevalent these days.

    Especially with Transcendence being a go-to option on even Assassins and also new patch giving some love to Book of Thoth builds.

    But out of all the stacking items (Book of Thoth, Devourer's Gauntlet, Soul Eater, Transcendence and Warlock's Staff) only Soul Eater has the freedom of being able to get stacks from assists (As well as bonus stacks from jungle camps)

    Even newer items that build up stacks in a more limited fashion (Such as Talisman of Energy, Rage, Hide of the Urchin and Assassin/Hunter/Mage Blessings) work from assists too. Heck, even Zhonger Donger had his need to last hit removed from his soul collecting.

    So why is it that the main stacking items, that are generally core for a build, still require you to last hit? Making things really annoying when you're just trying to clear a wave quickly to rotate to an objective (Such as a jungle camp) and have a second person in lane helping with clear.

    In addition, it also makes things really frustrating in non-Conquest modes, where you may have multiple people who go for stacking items but more limited waves to kill (Or requiring an outright global ban on stacking items in the case of Assault...)

    Why not open up all the stacking items to work from assists? Freeing up duo lanes (Either ADC/Support or a Jungler sharing with Mid/Solo) and alternate game modes to clear waves in peace without having to spam VSS every 2 seconds.
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    Senior Member Honoured SquireAngel's Avatar
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    I feel like stacking items are more where they should be. Soul eater being an outlier comes more from it being aimed at Assassins, (LS on abilites and CDR) who don't really have a lane to farm. These items stack for a reason, to make them more impactful after collecting them. This means that they give up early game and usually mid game pressure for a larger power spike lategame. If you allowed for assists on the majority of these items, you would effectively destroy the laning phase for those who buy them. There would be a much smaller penalty to roaming early as mid or duo, because you could keep your power spike rolling, no matter where you were. Jungles would be home to just about everything again, and you could even possibly see 3 people camping a single lane.

    This was kind of why the jungle as a whole was massively shifted in season 5 and Bhumbas was removed in it's jungle oriented iteration.

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    The Mad Hatter Prestigious Relanah's Avatar
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    The thing is, they still take time to stack. Even if you got them from assists, there's still only 1 wave per 30 seconds. You're still incentivised to get last hits for the bonus gold compared to assists.

    Roaming would still be a detriment to stacking, because walking through the jungle, you're not getting assists since you're not by a wave that's being taken out and if you're at a buff camp, well you're clearing it so you're getting the last hits a lot of the time anyway (Assists being enabled just makes it less of a concern and you can just wipe out the buff and get back to where you need to be instead of trying to be concerned about making sure the stacking guy gets the last hits).

    3 people camping a single lane is still bad even with assists on stacking items, since you're splitting the gold and experience 3 ways which means you're actually losing gold and exp.

    ADC's would still sit in duo lane and farm up until they have a few items online, just the support can help clear waves without worrying about ruining stacking.

    Mages going stacking items will still sit in mid until they have at least boots + 1 other item online. Only the Jungler can come and help clear waves occasionally without worrying about stacks.

    Junglers can continue to go Transcendence whenever they want (I've seen some 4th item trans jungles...) since 75% of its power is literally on the base item and they can get stacks from jungle camps and kills (5 stacks per kill. So go punch dudes)

    It's not even "Late game" that the stacking items come online. They're usually finished way, WAY before laning phase is even over, let alone mid-game starting. Heck, 2/4 of them actually provide fairly substantial power spikes when you pick them up (Trans and Thoth both grant at base, the power based on mana and you inherently have a base mana pool AND the items themselves provide mana at base. The stacks are just gravy for more mana and thus power).

    If stacking items are supposed to be slow, then why do the 3 stacking Blessings offer their boosts from assists? It's literally only Trans/Warlocks/Thoth/Devo's that don't stack from assists too.

    Not to mention, other game modes. Where a large portion of the annoyance lies and where items are banned from Assault (Blessings are available in Assault. But those 4 stacking items are banned because they need last hits for... Reasons?)
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    Senior Member Honoured SquireAngel's Avatar
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    Blessings are kind of their own thing. The power they offer is supposed to peak during the bridge from early game to midgame. As far as stacking items being late game, I'll concede that. They are mode midgame oriented, that was a bad point on my end. However, you can see these as a trade off slight, in terms of bridge items. Powerspikes have been slowed because items like asi and ichival no longer get built, and the only lane really picking them up is gladiator shield, and that's just more of warriors blessing #2.

    You do poke a whole in my argument a bit, as some of my examples showcase the worst scenario, which often isn't the case, but look back at the bhumbas mask meta for a better example of what has already happened. And as far as roaming, going back to the bhumbas mask, you saw jungle stringing along with mid for every camp and every wave. Wave clear was the more contested stat, because 2 gods wave clearing was more powerful than 1, and then jungle camps were next move between waves.

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    Ichaival does get built on occasion. Though it's usually after Devo's as a bridge item between Devo's and Exe.

    Other bridge items such as Asi, well... Suck. Asi is a boxing item but the meta is about ADC's just farming up and getting late game. So you don't really have an incentive to box, or pick mid game ADC's that box well (Like Anhur). Doom Orb? Yeah, that's just a terrible item since the rework on it.

    The only actually decent bridge items these days are Gladiator's Shield (But even then, in the solo lane, where you just slap box for days and sustain from Warrior's Blessing and Health Chalice it's not always that needed) and Stone of Binding (Which is really good and can actually be a mainstay in a full build especially since it increases in power come late game where you 5 man group)

    As far as Bumba's meta goes, most of that was because of the sustain from Bumba's. Rotating to have 2 people at every camp clear was ideal to keep everyone from backing to fountain. That's why you saw Bumba's get built on ADC's, Mages and even Supports alongside Junglers, because getting that health + mana on a good target was so strong.

    These days, even with Gauntlet of Thebes ONLY being stacked by assists, you don't have that happening with Supports, since it's not giving sustain like Bumba's meta, it's often better to let people who are nearby get the camps rather than try and rotate to get the stacks (It actually means that Thebes is the one stacking item that takes longest to complete...) and wave clear being mainly done by 1 person after the Support and Jungler can start roaming the jungles more consistently.

    Even more so with the larger map, it takes longer to move between waves and camps (Aside from mid harpies, but those are just killed ASAP by whomever is nearby because they're contested by both teams)

    In addition, there's also the removal of the Fire Giant minions, which were a very lucrative camp to take which further incentivised rotating your mid over to get them with the Jungler and/or Solo. Now there's no reason for mid to go over to FG pit outside of a team call to go Pyromancer.

    I mean, if the crux of the problem of making the final 4 stacking items also work with assists is how fast they come online, you can just alter the stacks on them.

    Double the total number of stacks, half the benefit per stack. Give 2 stacks per kill, 1 stack per assist (10 stacks per god kill, 5 stacks per god assist). There you go. Works with assists, but prevents any kind of "Speeding up" of stacking due to very slight increase in potential stacks from a second god clearing waves with you...
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    Senior Member Honoured SquireAngel's Avatar
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    You bring up valid points, but in regards to the spooling speed, what's the point of freeing something up if it's just that mich harder to spool up? Kinda defeats the purpose, dontcha think?

    I won't say that it's inherently wrong. That is far, FAR too perspectively based for me to call, and who knows, maybe you're entirely right for the health of the game? I'm just wary of exploitation/unhealthy meta shifts. God knows how boring/unfun those can be. While you're correct about the sustain on bhumbas, if you could get yourself further ahead, or worse fall further behind because you DIDNT, dont you think they would?

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    The Mad Hatter Prestigious Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquireAngel View Post
    You bring up valid points, but in regards to the spooling speed, what's the point of freeing something up if it's just that mich harder to spool up? Kinda defeats the purpose, dontcha think?
    Well, the above suggestion doesn't actually change how fast it spools up if you continue to get last hits...

    But it does mean that if some jerkwad teammate insta-clears a wave before you get a chance to do anything, you at least make SOME progress towards stacking. Which is the reasoning for Zhonger Donger's recent change in how he gains stacks (Now the only god with annoying wave interaction mechanics is Hades where other people insta-clearing the wave leaves him without his heal... But there's no recourse for that mechanic...)

    I'm just wary of exploitation/unhealthy meta shifts. God knows how boring/unfun those can be.
    Well, the other side of the coin is trying to vie for non-stacking items to compete with stacking items... At the moment, it's only the case for Mages whom don't always go for Warlock's/Thoth and can instead get a good early power spike with Bancroft/Soul Reaver/Chronos rushes.

    It's Hunters where the issue with stacking goes, where all of them take Devo's or Trans. In part because they don't have to be relevant until mid-late. In part because there are few alternative items to compete. Like, all other lifesteal options are trash compared to the 65 power 24% LS of Devo's. While nothing is comparable to the 80+ power and infinite mana of Trans (Physical items really are lacklustre for mana sustain... It's literally just Trans/Hydra's unless you're weird and think Blackthorn's Hammer is worth anything)

    But then again, stacking from assists barely helps Hunters, since the time when the Support is with them, is before they've built their stacking item... Afterwards, they're pretty much solo until it's time to start teamfighting... (Except in other game modes of course, where contested waves are more prominent)
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    Senior Member Honoured LinkNightblade's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind seeing Thoth, Warlocks, and Devourer's Gauntlets get a mild change to how they stack. That change being an extra stack or stacks on killing a brute minion or large jungle monster. Warlocks takes forever to stack. 100 stacks is silly, 75 on thoth is even oh my. Then there are Trans and Devo's which both require less, 50 and 70 respectively. Trans wouldn't need this change since it already stacks so fast no matter the role. But such a change could be interesting and speed up the game mildly, especially when stacking is so common right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    So, stacking items are becoming more and more prevalent these days.

    Especially with Transcendence being a go-to option on even Assassins and also new patch giving some love to Book of Thoth builds.

    But out of all the stacking items (Book of Thoth, Devourer's Gauntlet, Soul Eater, Transcendence and Warlock's Staff) only Soul Eater has the freedom of being able to get stacks from assists (As well as bonus stacks from jungle camps)

    Even newer items that build up stacks in a more limited fashion (Such as Talisman of Energy, Rage, Hide of the Urchin and Assassin/Hunter/Mage Blessings) work from assists too. Heck, even Zhonger Donger had his need to last hit removed from his soul collecting.

    So why is it that the main stacking items, that are generally core for a build, still require you to last hit? Making things really annoying when you're just trying to clear a wave quickly to rotate to an objective (Such as a jungle camp) and have a second person in lane helping with clear.

    In addition, it also makes things really frustrating in non-Conquest modes, where you may have multiple people who go for stacking items but more limited waves to kill (Or requiring an outright global ban on stacking items in the case of Assault...)

    Why not open up all the stacking items to work from assists? Freeing up duo lanes (Either ADC/Support or a Jungler sharing with Mid/Solo) and alternate game modes to clear waves in peace without having to spam VSS every 2 seconds.
    Most of the other items are assist items. The others are pure ego and should be farmed that way. Keeping stackers down should be a thing. These days I feel zhonger is a assist God not the carry so it makes sense for him to be like that.
    Rocking the boat

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