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Thread: 5.13 Mid-Season Update Notes

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexNemesis View Post
    yeah those videos are lies. If you want your beloved Freya keep one shotting people and she stays this way, it is fine. But don't say that crap to me.
    I never said its fine i just point out your lies about her "1 shoting tanks" so its just you who says crap
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    I see 2122 damage. There's a 374 and 2x 874.
    Huh, I didn't see the Poly proc. I thought it hit the wave and not Anubis. Unless it did, and the 374 you saw was on a minion?

    Also, hopefully they delete the masks from existence, since while this thread is harping on about Freya and how her burst when exploding minions is high, I'm just sat here thinking "Well, Crit Hunters do about that much damage per hit now. Let alone with the mask..."
    I mean, removing them isn't the answer. They just need to have stronger drawbacks in relation to their strengths. Randa's wouldn't be much of an issue were it not for the absurdly forgiving penalty.
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    The Mad Hatter Prestigious Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    Huh, I didn't see the Poly proc. I thought it hit the wave and not Anubis. Unless it did, and the 374 you saw was on a minion?
    The poly did proc on a minion for 346...

    But watching the replay again, I can't see that 374 damage anymore... Odd... Maybe I'm too crazy for this...

    So yeah, it's just the 2x 874 and the 38 Soul Reaver proc for 1786 damage total... (Literally JUST enough to one shot a mage with no health items)

    I mean, removing them isn't the answer. They just need to have stronger drawbacks in relation to their strengths. Randa's wouldn't be much of an issue were it not for the absurdly forgiving penalty.
    So long as they exist, there's going to be someone, somewhere who'll find out how to abuse them.

    Like, put a massive damage taken penalty on Rangda's? Well, someone will go Soul Gem Nu Wa and do massive burst damage with her ult (Heck, I've already been able to get it so I take out 50% of squishies life without pots/red buff/fire giant)

    Or Thoth will get it and just sit 4000 miles away from the fight poking for a million damage because that's what he does.

    Higher negative movement speed? Well get it on gods with a mobility skill. Then take mobility items like Atlanta's Bow/Shaman's Ring.

    There's honestly no way such massive boosts to power can be healthy for the game. Either, someone will find specific gods/builds that mitigate the penalties and abuse the massive power boost to dominate the game or the penalties will be so harsh literally no-one will buy them and they're better off just not existing until they can figure out how to utilize the 3 mask names in a way that isn't stupid.
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  4. #54
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    But the defense mask is so good....they can take damage mask all they want i can still tank through it while having 3 offensive items (maybe even 4). We have 100% damage mitigation options, and large amounts of damage mitigation for other gods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    So long as they exist, there's going to be someone, somewhere who'll find out how to abuse them.

    Like, put a massive damage taken penalty on Rangda's? Well, someone will go Soul Gem Nu Wa and do massive burst damage with her ult (Heck, I've already been able to get it so I take out 50% of squishies life without pots/red buff/fire giant)

    Or Thoth will get it and just sit 4000 miles away from the fight poking for a million damage because that's what he does.

    Higher negative movement speed? Well get it on gods with a mobility skill. Then take mobility items like Atlanta's Bow/Shaman's Ring.

    There's honestly no way such massive boosts to power can be healthy for the game. Either, someone will find specific gods/builds that mitigate the penalties and abuse the massive power boost to dominate the game or the penalties will be so harsh literally no-one will buy them and they're better off just not existing until they can figure out how to utilize the 3 mask names in a way that isn't stupid.
    So long as something is useful, it can be abused. This doesn't mean it's fundamentally broken. The masks may need nerfs--reworks, even--but outright removal of content that can otherwise work if tweaked is not the answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    So long as something is useful, it can be abused. This doesn't mean it's fundamentally broken. The masks may need nerfs--reworks, even--but outright removal of content that can otherwise work if tweaked is not the answer.
    Well, the global stats on the masks makes them really, really hard to design right.

    If they work, then they're pre-S5 Tahuti but for more than just mages. I.e. Core in every build that plays that role.

    If they don't work, then they pretty much don't exist, outside maybe a few pub stomp games where like a Loki builds damage mask and one shots noobs or someone builds tank mask on Chang'e and just doesn't die 1v5.

    All the while they're not fulfilling the intended design, which is to allow people options to "Shift" roles. Heck, even in their example of a Warrior shifting between Guardian-esk or Assassin-esk, I can't imagine most Warriors building anything other than the damage mask and going bruiser and stomping people with exceptions like Herc using tank mask to become even more immortal (While still having the CC to stay relevant)

    It's not as if outright removing content is unheard of. I mean, all the old starter items, INCLUDING these 3 masks where globally removed.

    It doesn't even have to mean never having an item like this again, it just means, people are spared the pains of having to deal with OP items and the nerfs they'll inevitably get until they eventually decide that it doesn't work and remove them anyway...

    I mean, remove the masks. Think a bit harder about how to implement trade off items in a way that isn't stupid and bring back ALL the old starter items with various advantages and disadvantages (That are specifically targeted and also class restricted. Like you couldn't get Bluestone Pendant on a magical character for example. So it could be an item that enhances physical gods abilities at the cost of weakening basics. War Flag could be an item for physical gods to become more guardian-esk by reducing damage but providing defences and maybe some sort of not-shit aura etc - Just something that minimizes the number of variables needed to keep in mind when trying to balance the items. A Bluestone Pendant ability item could have more potency if it didn't have to worry about "What if X mage uses the item?")

    When you have just 3 items being generalist items, usable by literally any god, then you're just going to get people stacking power on power, tank on tank, speed on Merc... And at that point, instead of figuring out how to unbreak them, why not just think of new items to add to the regular pool of Physical Power/Magical Power and Defensive items...
    Last edited by Relanah; 07-16-2018 at 05:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    Well, the global stats on the masks makes them really, really hard to design right.
    The solution is simply to make them more punishing in their drawbacks relative to how strong they are. In particular, I think the cycle of the pros and cons they have should be re-evaluated. Rangda's should make you take more damage, Lono's should make you slower, and Bumba's should make you deal a little less damage. Or something like that, anyway. Either that, or have 2 pairs of masks (Rangda's-Lono's, Bumba's-other mask) that grant opposing stats, with Rangda's and Lono's affecting defense and damage and Bumba's and its twin affecting mobility and CDR or something. A fix like that would make the masks' drawbacks more punishing. You can get this huge boost, yes; but it will cost you heavily.
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    The Mad Hatter Prestigious Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    The solution is simply to make them more punishing in their drawbacks relative to how strong they are. In particular, I think the cycle of the pros and cons they have should be re-evaluated. Rangda's should make you take more damage, Lono's should make you slower, and Bumba's should make you deal a little less damage. Or something like that, anyway. Either that, or have 2 pairs of masks (Rangda's-Lono's, Bumba's-other mask) that grant opposing stats, with Rangda's and Lono's affecting defense and damage and Bumba's and its twin affecting mobility and CDR or something. A fix like that would make the masks' drawbacks more punishing. You can get this huge boost, yes; but it will cost you heavily.
    But even then, it doesn't solve anything.

    Glass cannons will continue to glass cannon with damage mask. They explode instantly anyway and the only real defence item they build is Magi's for the passive not the paltry 15 prots.

    Though, you now also open up the possibility for Bruiser builds to dominate since they get the massive defence from tank mask and just a MS penalty to show for it.

    It all comes down to you can't really balance global stats. It's just too difficult to give them an adequate balance between pros and cons to make them not must pick and also not trash.

    Hence why I think more specific examples are the only way to work it.

    That way you can do stuff like Bluestone Pendant giving ability damage and taking away from basics. Not everyone will want that, only people who are building for abilities will. Then you also factor in if you even want to take it as an ability god. For example, Ullr could take it and get his combo scale into the late game, or he could forgo it and build straight power + pen and get some good basics along with okay ability damage.

    Even very ability based gods can decide on it too, such as Serqet. A lot of Serqet's damage comes from her abilities. However, come late game when you're rocking some decent crit, you might want to use a few more basics here and there. Or maybe you want to forgo ability damage and rely on her 1 and 3 purely for mobility while you CC with her 2 and 4 and deal damage with basics (Perhaps there's another item you want instead?)

    Something specific you can mould to the class(es) its available to, giving it disadvantages that are meaningful but not oppressive for specific boosts that allow you to customize your build further (Essentially like how you can build Ullr for ability damage and go raw power + pen. Or you can go hybrid with power + pen and throw in a Qin's and Exe for boosted basics. Or you can ignore his kit almost entirely and build standard Hunter crit build.)

    Not "You do more damage with everything" with downsides that don't stop a glass cannon build from succeeding.

    Not "You get a huge boost" but move slower (When there's plenty of good items with movement speed on)

    Those things just are doomed to fail.

    Like, I honestly can't think of a downside that would make not everyone buy a "You do more damage with everything" item.

    Less health/take more damage? Well they're glass anyway.

    Less speed? Buy a speed item.

    Less gold gain? Buy it 6th item.

    Less damage to structures/objectives? That's what teams are for (Also, if you've murdered everyone you have all the time in the world to eventually take objectives out)

    Can't use pots/get jungle buffs? Defeats the purpose of the item increasing damage.

    Can't get kill credit? Buy it 6th item.

    Can't lifesteal? Mages don't care. Just go Trans on physicals.

    Can't crit? Mages don't care. Qin's builds for days.

    Lose the item on death? Buy it 6th item.
    Last edited by Relanah; 07-16-2018 at 07:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    But even then, it doesn't solve anything.

    Glass cannons will continue to glass cannon with damage mask. They explode instantly anyway and the only real defence item they build is Magi's for the passive not the paltry 15 prots.

    Though, you now also open up the possibility for Bruiser builds to dominate since they get the massive defence from tank mask and just a MS penalty to show for it.
    Then make Rangda's lower attack speed and CDR so you hit harder, but not as often, making it specialized for burst builds only and not sustained-damage builds; Lono's can also see a utility drop because then you get to soak up more damage but can't do as much in one fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    I mean, removing them isn't the answer. They just need to have stronger drawbacks in relation to their strengths. Randa's wouldn't be much of an issue were it not for the absurdly forgiving penalty.
    and why is that? removing was an answer for fatalis, for golden bow...
    TOP 3 most stupid things i've ever see in this forum:
    she can do 1000 dmg at level 3 by just her 2-and passive
    her 3 should be more like medusa moving backwards movement penalty reduced only by 50%
    Her ult now is her 2 but with lower damage but same cooldown!
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