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Thread: Baron's broken ultimate

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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead SirPapouille's Avatar
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    Baron's broken ultimate

    Not my first post about Baron Samedi. People complained I didn't consider the maths of his skills. Well, let's compare his ultimate with Ra's and Kukulkan's ultimates, two of the most damage-burst mage ultimates.

    Ra's Searing Pain Damage:400/475/550/625/700 (+100% of your magical power)

    Kukulkan's SotNW Damage: 400/500/600/700/800 (+120% of your magical power)

    So these two ultimates have quite a similar damage output, and similar in effect.

    Baron Samedi's LotP is a bit more complicated. You get many sources of damage.

    Damage per Tick: 17/24/31/38/45 (+6% of your magical power) [10 ticks in total]
    Damage on Hit: 140/210/280/350/420 (+50% of your magical power)
    Total Health Damage: 15%

    Lets take, for the maths' sake, a level 1 ultimate with 100 magical power on a 1 000 health and zero resistance target.

    Ra : 400 + 100 = 500 damage.
    Kukulkan : 400 + 120 = 520 damage.

    Baron : 140 + 170 + 150 = 460.

    So the damage is comparable. What's the problem then?

    Well, Ra and Kukulkan are snipe abilities that require timing and skill. It's all or nothing. Sure, you can one-shot many targets at once, but it is even harder to hit more than one target at once (depends on timing, aim, luck and circumstances).

    Baron's ultimate has TWO crowd control effect, PULL and STUN.

    The pull is more potent than Hades (I tried to dash out of Baron's ult with Nemesis, and even if I was at the tip of the pull, it was still stronger than the two dashes PLUS the speed relic), and that you CANNOT be immune to with beads (confirmed with many attempts, beads prevent the stun but NOT the pull effect).

    The stun, if not avoided, lasts TWO seconds at ALL levels. That's 1s to 0.5s more than Artemis' boar. ALSO, it applies max Hysteria to you, so the next ability hits for 25% more damage.

    But that's not all. The ultimate lasts for 3.5s, AND you can move with normal speed with it, so it allows for A LOT of latitude. You can literally start your ult out of range and chase a slowed or rooted enemy. AND he's CC immune for the duration, an immunity longer than Artemis and probably all other gods.

    So basically, Baron's ultimate deals almost as much damage as the highest damage ultimates in the game
    WHILE requiring zero skills or timing
    WHILE having two potent CC effects
    WHILE making the god CC immune for 3.5s
    AND allowing him to hit you for 25% more damage with his next skill whether you're stunned or not.


    With all that being said, I'm eager to hear all of your counter-arguments.

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    New Member Cupidhead DrunknMarksman's Avatar
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    It's completely and utterly broken. Consider his other abilities can be queued off this with no skill required to get a hit, including another root effect. At bare minimum to cooldown needs to be increased. I just had a Baron use his Ult twice within ~25 seconds. I know it was about 25 seconds because he killed me with it, and then I respawned after a 20 second timer, and he killed me with it again.

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    Senior Member Honoured Saerireth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrunknMarksman View Post
    It's completely and utterly broken. Consider his other abilities can be queued off this with no skill required to get a hit, including another root effect. At bare minimum to cooldown needs to be increased. I just had a Baron use his Ult twice within ~25 seconds. I know it was about 25 seconds because he killed me with it, and then I respawned after a 20 second timer, and he killed me with it again.
    Even if he built full cdr and nothing else, there is absolutely no way that this happened. It is a 90 second cooldown.
    And if ur saying that they require no skill to hit, then you obviously have not ever played him.
    No, they're not as hard as nox skillshots, but he's definitely not launching stuff at thoth orb speed
    Last edited by Saerireth; 07-04-2018 at 10:33 PM.

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    Senior Member Honoured Saerireth's Avatar
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    You are remaining oblivious to the fact that his ult ends when someone gets caught, thus rarely is he getting all 10 ticks of this off. This can happen at any time, and usually your guardian is the person you want to get caught in order to soak the damage. This is also a channeled skill, the only benefits being that he's cc immune and a damage reduction. He cannot take other actions besides run.
    Base damage on ult is being nerfed this next patch.

    Furthermore, ra and kuku's ults can both hit multiple gods. Baron's burst from his ult hits only 1, and that's IF he gets someone trapped.

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    First off i can't comprehend your math for Baron's damage... I'm assuming 140 for base on hit, 170 for somehow getting 10 ticks of damage(good luck with that) and 150 for 15% of a target's health....

    So where's his damage from scaling? 10 ticks means 110% scaling for an additional 110 damage right?

    Shouldn't it be 570 damage then? Of course in reality there's no way he's getting 10 ticks of his pull off. The pull itself is too strong to allow that even if you tried to get 10 ticks...

    Second that is early game damage, Baron has good base damages so yes early game he is strong. He also falls off late game. Compare his damages to a 1300-1400 Ra or a 1500-1600 Kulkulkan(with Baron only achieving the same amounts as Ra as Kulkulkan gets bonus power from his passive)

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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead SirPapouille's Avatar
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    The % of max health he does as true damage makes his damage scaling quite competitive. A Kukul or Ra ult in late game won't faze a tank much, but Baron will burst them big time. I'm almost always Athena in Conquest, and Baron scares me to death. If I encounter him 1v1 in the jungle, I have to run. If he lands a 3+2 (slow + root), then his ultimate (stun), then his 1, if I don't have beads I'm 100% dead, no matter how much magic defense I packed.

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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead SirPapouille's Avatar
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    Also, the two last replies are only considering his damage. Yes, his damage is less than Ra or Kukul, but everything that goes with it makes it broken. A squishy will need both Beads AND Aegis to survive that ultimate.

    Find me another god who has TWO potent CC effects on ONE skill. AND makes him CC immune for over 3s. AND can burst down tanks. AND gets a 25% bonus damage with further abilities on the god caught.

    It's like going to the pizzeria, paying the same amount as your pal, but you get a regular all-dressed pizza and the he gets the deluxe one with pepperoni, sausage, Philly steak and bacon. Just feels unfair.

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    Looking at it i can build 760 power on Ra before bonuses unaffected by the power soft cap(so every mage including Baron can do this, with a few mages like Scylla and Ao Kuang etc having access to more).

    With bonuses from book of thoth passive, typhons and Bancroft's this goes up to 999 when im at or below 25% max health.

    Since this is only at 760 for the soft cap i can quite easily add a discordia passive 70 for 1069 power when im at or below 25% max health.

    I technically can add even more with a Hel with a pythags for another 60 power(still leaving room for another 10 flat power if i can ever find it but so far i can't find a way for Ra and many other mages to hit the soft cap unlike physical gods who all can hit their soft cap).

    But we won't factor a Hel with pythags into this since she'd have to be near you for that benefit, bad enough that we are taking a discordia buff for this.

    So 1069+45%(red buff and elixir of power) that's about 1550 power. This is what we'll use for Ra and Baron's damage. If we get a nike involved we add another 85 power for 1635. Let's stick to 1550 though since you hardly ever see a Nike these days.

    Kukulkan gets even more power thanks to his passive, instead of 1069 as his base he gets an additional 154 power for 1223 base. That's 1773 power(around another 98 with nike).

    If you want to look at damages for when you are at full health(no Bancroft's bonus) just reduce the base power by 120.

    Now Ra ult does 2250 damage before mitigations.

    Kukulkan ult does 2927 damage before mitigations.

    Baron using your 10 ticks math does 2575 and an additional 15% of targets max health before mitigations.

    However a MUCH more realistic 5 ticks(and this is still a bit generous) gives 1885 and an additional 15% of targets max health before mitigations. This is lower than Ra (but still in a comparable range) and both are way below Kukulkan. These are very late game damages though(as they involve elixir of power).

    I'm not entirely sure what the fire giant buff does, but it likely benefits Ra and Kukulkan more than Baron as well.

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    New Member Cupidhead Reygon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirPapouille View Post
    Not my first post about Baron Samedi. People complained I didn't consider the maths of his skills. Well, let's compare his ultimate with Ra's and Kukulkan's ultimates, two of the most damage-burst mage ultimates.

    Ra's Searing Pain Damage:400/475/550/625/700 (+100% of your magical power)

    Kukulkan's SotNW Damage: 400/500/600/700/800 (+120% of your magical power)

    So these two ultimates have quite a similar damage output, and similar in effect.

    Baron Samedi's LotP is a bit more complicated. You get many sources of damage.

    Damage per Tick: 17/24/31/38/45 (+6% of your magical power) [10 ticks in total]
    Damage on Hit: 140/210/280/350/420 (+50% of your magical power)
    Total Health Damage: 15%

    Lets take, for the maths' sake, a level 1 ultimate with 100 magical power on a 1 000 health and zero resistance target.

    Ra : 400 + 100 = 500 damage.
    Kukulkan : 400 + 120 = 520 damage.

    Baron : 140 + 170 + 150 = 460.

    So the damage is comparable. What's the problem then?

    Well, Ra and Kukulkan are snipe abilities that require timing and skill. It's all or nothing. Sure, you can one-shot many targets at once, but it is even harder to hit more than one target at once (depends on timing, aim, luck and circumstances).

    Baron's ultimate has TWO crowd control effect, PULL and STUN.

    The pull is more potent than Hades (I tried to dash out of Baron's ult with Nemesis, and even if I was at the tip of the pull, it was still stronger than the two dashes PLUS the speed relic), and that you CANNOT be immune to with beads (confirmed with many attempts, beads prevent the stun but NOT the pull effect).

    The stun, if not avoided, lasts TWO seconds at ALL levels. That's 1s to 0.5s more than Artemis' boar. ALSO, it applies max Hysteria to you, so the next ability hits for 25% more damage.

    But that's not all. The ultimate lasts for 3.5s, AND you can move with normal speed with it, so it allows for A LOT of latitude. You can literally start your ult out of range and chase a slowed or rooted enemy. AND he's CC immune for the duration, an immunity longer than Artemis and probably all other gods.

    So basically, Baron's ultimate deals almost as much damage as the highest damage ultimates in the game
    WHILE requiring zero skills or timing
    WHILE having two potent CC effects
    WHILE making the god CC immune for 3.5s
    AND allowing him to hit you for 25% more damage with his next skill whether you're stunned or not.


    With all that being said, I'm eager to hear all of your counter-arguments.
    I couldn't agree more... thank you for express brilliantly what the community thinks!!!

  10. #10
    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead SirPapouille's Avatar
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    Again, as Osiris in Conquest, encountered Baron in the jungle.
    He lands his 3, which makes me a sitting duck.
    His 2 then takes away 25% of my life, even though I have magic defense.
    He then ults me, I don't have beads yet because I'm solo and need teleport first (we were below lv12), can't escape, health goes down to 25%.
    I'm stunned for 2s, he uses his 1 and I'm dead.

    Even if I fought against He Bo, at the same level and same build, and he pulled his full combo, I would've lived. Even if he shot another 1 after the full combo.

    That's how broken Baron is. Insane damage, insane CC, and even if you manage to damage him he will heal himself.

    Smite sure is fun when a warrior can't even start to 1v1 a mage.

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