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Thread: Solo lane guardians

  1. #21
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    I'm glad you all liked my comment...

    but its true, 100% of the time 100% of the guardians scale like shit into the late game. Their only late game purpose is to turn into bricks and throw themselves into the enemies face, specifically to allow attacks on objectives and to hold auras. Early game advantages do less for them than any other class because their scaling doesn't allow them to get far enough ahead. The only way your advantage could possibly matter is if it causes an early surrender.

    Also. Yes a damage cap exists. I've never run into a damage cap because its almost impossible to reach in a realistic build. It isn't going to matter if you reach it, you already have most of the damage possible anyway. If there wasn't a cap, how much more damage could you possibly have? That is also a hard cap, not a soft cap. I was talking about soft caps.

    The soft cap for armor starts at 50% or 100, and then scales down in effectiveness until what you would call a "hard cap" at 325. Damage scales the same until a cap, resistances do not. Guardians "advantage" then pushes them into that softcap sooner than any other class, where other classes have advantages that do not push them into soft caps. That is a balance issue related to scaling, and they have problems scaling - this could be related.

    As they are you can build them damage and 0-100 someone, sure (anyone can do that), but then if a squishy builds a little defense (getting 100% effect from it due to not hitting a cap), becoming "not so squishy", then you aren't going to 100-0 anything. Instead, you're just a fish dangling around on a high cool down because your damage was at 50% scaling where their resistances were at 100% scaling AND their damage on abilities was at, near, or over 100%.

    a guardian winning the "Early game" does nothing because a guardian loses power going into the mid game and then loses the rest of it late game. You scale at 50% (on average) unless you're a dragon, but you are a dragon far less than you are - so for less time than not you get to be a "real player". You might as well play something that gets 100% and 100% of the stats on all of its item purchases all of the time rather than a guardian who gets screwed on everything most of the time.

    Guardians have a strong start and then scale horribly into the late game. They are too easy to play, too. That is one of their things... ease of execution. Maybe if they were a little more challenging and a little more competitive more people would actually want to play them. There is obviously something wrong with it if the players are avoiding it. They don't avoid anything else.

    edit/add: I am pretty sure you can get them picked a lot more if you make their resistance stat also boost their auto attack damage. This improves a part that doesn't exist for them already (single target damage) and makes their advantage useful in spite of caps, and its something no other class can mimic... and I think people would find it pretty entertaining.
    Last edited by Pizlenut; 05-09-2018 at 02:42 PM.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Chosen RandomToon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizlenut View Post

    They are too easy to play, too. That is one of their things... ease of execution. Maybe if they were a little more challenging and a little more competitive more people would actually want to play them.
    Fafnir laughs at your "ease of execution" comment.

    Also, people do not play guardians for one simple reason - they cannot 100-0 people easily. It is CoD mentality; you are playing Domination and are 25-3 but have three seconds worth of objective control thinking you are good. Guardians set up others for kills instead, and provide peel. But since people only care about stat lines and there is no stat line for "times I saved your ass" they will never be popular.

    Maybe if they added a line of "seconds of CC" and "damage secured" which would just be damage dealt to folks while they were in your CC it would mean more.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizlenut View Post


    Also. Yes a damage cap exists. I've never run into a damage cap because its almost impossible to reach in a realistic build. It isn't going to matter if you reach it, you already have most of the damage possible anyway. If there wasn't a cap, how much more damage could you possibly have? That is also a hard cap, not a soft cap. I was talking about soft caps.

    The soft cap for armor starts at 50% or 100, and then scales down in effectiveness until what you would call a "hard cap" at 325. Damage scales the same until a cap, resistances do not. Guardians "advantage" then pushes them into that softcap sooner than any other class, where other classes have advantages that do not push them into soft caps. That is a balance issue related to scaling, and they have problems scaling - this could be related.
    The hard cap for protections is not 325. Fenrir can have 650 protections during his ultimate.

    Diminishing returns affects protections after the very first point. 10 points of defense is worth almost 10% damage reduction. 50 points of defense is worth almost 34% damage reduction. Saying the soft cap is at 100 defense is incorrect, that is merely where people say it isn't worth as much to build due to low amounts of damage reduction. However even a single point of defense is already worth ever so slightly less than 1% damage reduction. Lets be honest though, if you want to be tanky it is definitely worth it to build more than 100 defense. You typically want more than a single defensive item(1 defense item easily puts you over 100 physical defense).

    It is true that power gives the same amount of additional damage per point the whole time while defense gives less and less %damage reduction per point. If defense worked by reducing a flat number instead of a percentage perhaps it would scale better, that is not how the soft caps work though.

    It is also very easy to run into physical power soft caps as I've previously stated, that is how you build 800+ power on Awilix...if there wasn't a cap i could likely build 1000+ power on Awilx. At the very least i know I'd be able to build 900+ and that is just thinking of power buffs off the top of my head. So against an opponent with 100 defense(50% damage reduction) building 1000+ power instead of 800 would be another 100 damage per basic, 200 per crit since you can build 50% crit chance on her with that. Perhaps that doesn't seem like much to you but it can be the difference between winning or losing an engagement. Also you should see how an awilix with such a build handles a fire giant, she swats him like a fly.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomToon View Post
    Fafnir laughs at your "ease of execution" comment.

    Also, people do not play guardians for one simple reason - they cannot 100-0 people easily. It is CoD mentality;
    They don't play them because they aren't fun to play. Simple. Gamers are very easy to understand. You can lead them around with lures, beat them with sticks, incentivize actions you want to see, but after the lures, beatings, and pay offs they all just start doing what is most entertaining.

    If they aren't naturally gravitating towards something then its actually not fun, there is obviously something wrong with it, and that thing that is wrong is what is repelling them. That is a problem when you're responsible for a game that is supposed to be fun, and even more of a problem when there is pressure for someone to actually pick what is not fun. I mean, even if the CoD players don't pick it up, SOMEONE should want it. I don't like to play warriors very much, for example, but more often than not someone else will want to play them. Thats how it should work. Guardians... not so much.

    This is probably a bigger issue with conquest, as a whole, is that nobody wants to get "stuck" with this shit class for 40 minutes
    thats why the other modes are so popular... less expectations means nobody is pressured into playing the dreaded guardian.

    and yes, im well aware of how difficult Fafnirs jump is. Hes probably the one guardian that is actually done right, actually fun to play, but only compared to his peers - which means hes king of the shit barrel.


    anyhooo. You guys have fun with your guardians. Clearly I am just barking up the wrong tree here, everything is fine, everyone loves the class. We just need a system to force people to play it... thats all that smite needs. Then its all fixed.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizlenut View Post
    but its true, 100% of the time 100% of the guardians scale like shit into the late game.
    They don't. Athena's base combo has 150% scaling. Ares has 221% with 8 seconds of Shackles and Searing Flesh. Cabrakan has 210% with Poly, Seismic Crush, Refraction Shield, and one tic of Tremors. Xing Tian has 190% with a full rotation sans ult. Ymir has 120% plus a steroid that adds 20% to each basic attack. All of these gods have strong base damage. Guardians do not have low late-game damage if go bruiser. The "guardians have low damage" shit is a myth that needs to die.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    Perhaps that doesn't seem like much to you but it can be the difference between winning or losing an engagement. Also you should see how an awilix with such a build handles a fire giant, she swats him like a fly.
    Lol, I'm sure she does. I would argue she would do more damage (to players) if she had more resistances instead of extra damage... but... thats not really the point.

    I am talking about getting value out of items. Inventory space is precious. Guardian scaling on damage is shit before any cap ever affects them, then they are also getting less value from resistances too. Their advantage eventually dilutes where other classes just get to stack on top.

    A mage has higher damage to start with. Cool. Makes sense to everyone. When they add damage, their starting damage is simply stacked on top making the item they buy 100% effective. When they also add a defensive item they get the full value of that item, which makes that inventory slot 100% utilized. A guardians advantage merely stacks them into diminished returns, and continues to diminish the more they stack on top of it.

    This is compounded by the fact that their damage scaling is bad. Every point of damage that they add is diminished on abilities and diminished on auto attacks. They can't really get 100% use out of any inventory slot for any reason, even their intended role.

    I'm saying that looks like a discrepancy to me. I don't know if it is, but it looks like one. Something that is not equal, which means its off balance, which could be - or at least contribute to the reason why the class, as a whole, is also not a very hot pick. I think giving them auto attack damage for their resistances is a good way to compensate without breaking down the balance around their abilities, without impacting other classes, or messing with items.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizlenut View Post
    Lol, I'm sure she does. I would argue she would do more damage (to players) if she had more resistances instead of extra damage... but... thats not really the point.

    I am talking about getting value out of items. Inventory space is precious. Guardian scaling on damage is shit before any cap ever affects them, then they are also getting less value from resistances too. Their advantage eventually dilutes where other classes just get to stack on top.

    A mage has higher damage to start with. Cool. Makes sense to everyone. When they add damage, their starting damage is simply stacked on top making the item they buy 100% effective. When they also add a defensive item they get the full value of that item, which makes that inventory slot 100% utilized. A guardians advantage merely stacks them into diminished returns, and continues to diminish the more they stack on top of it.

    This is compounded by the fact that their damage scaling is bad. Every point of damage that they add is diminished on abilities and diminished on auto attacks. They can't really get 100% use out of any inventory slot for any reason, even their intended role.

    I'm saying that looks like a discrepancy to me. I don't know if it is, but it looks like one. Something that is not equal, which means its off balance, which could be - or at least contribute to the reason why the class, as a whole, is also not a very hot pick. I think giving them auto attack damage for their resistances is a good way to compensate without breaking down the balance around their abilities, without impacting other classes, or messing with items.
    Well I've said elsewhere how i think the magical/physical power needs adjusting, either by increasing magical power on items or decreasing physical power on item or my personal favorite reducing the magical power soft cap(from 900) and increasing scaling on basic attacks(to maybe 40%). It is definitely true that physical gods overall have a late game advantage due the the very superior scaling basics and the fact that typically speaking they really aren't that far behind in power compared to magical gods.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    They don't. Athena's base combo has 150% scaling. Ares has 221% with 8 seconds of Shackles and Searing Flesh. Cabrakan has 210% with Poly, Seismic Crush, Refraction Shield, and one tic of Tremors. Xing Tian has 190% with a full rotation sans ult. Ymir has 120% plus a steroid that adds 20% to each basic attack. All of these gods have strong base damage. Guardians do not have low late-game damage if go bruiser. The "guardians have low damage" shit is a myth that needs to die.
    I do like me some theorycrafting.

    221% over 8 seconds is garbage. Anubis has you beat in one spell and 3 seconds, but I know that isn't fair to bring suicide bombers into this.

    so how about hebo? His 1 has 240% over 9 seconds. KKK just needs to throw a 1 and his ult to beat it, not even over 8 seconds... he also likes poly. Both of those mages have shorter cool downs than your average guardian AND they out fired them with one hand tied behind their back.

    what about... Ah puch? I dunno about that guy, his DPS is hard to track because his 1 is/can be spammy, but I know he makes a better support than ares does

    The fact is that a mage is going to beat out a guardian, easily, every time on damage (thats expected). They can't beat out the armor/resistances that a guardian CAN get, but that doesn't exactly matter because of diminishing returns. They can still get their armor/resistances up to an effective point before becoming diminished but a guardian has all of its damage diminished all of the time and adding armor to it is also diminished immediately due to their base attributes elevating that specific stat.

    the problem is that they get less for every item they buy and that means they do not scale as well as everyone else into the late game.

    alright, thats too many posts about this. I'm done. I think I've said what I want to say 3 or 4 different ways by now, there probably isn't anything more to add.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizlenut View Post
    I do like me some theorycrafting.

    221% over 8 seconds is garbage. Anubis has you beat in one spell and 3 seconds, but I know that isn't fair to bring suicide bombers into this.

    so how about hebo? His 1 has 240% over 9 seconds. KKK just needs to throw a 1 and his ult to beat it, not even over 8 seconds... he also likes poly. Both of those mages have shorter cool downs than your average guardian AND they out fired them with one hand tied behind their back.

    what about... Ah puch? I dunno about that guy, his DPS is hard to track because his 1 is/can be spammy, but I know he makes a better support than ares does

    The fact is that a mage is going to beat out a guardian, easily, every time on damage (thats expected). They can't beat out the armor/resistances that a guardian CAN get, but that doesn't exactly matter because of diminishing returns. They can still get their armor/resistances up to an effective point before becoming diminished but a guardian has all of its damage diminished all of the time and adding armor to it is also diminished immediately due to their base attributes elevating that specific stat.

    the problem is that they get less for every item they buy and that means they do not scale as well as everyone else into the late game.

    alright, thats too many posts about this. I'm done. I think I've said what I want to say 3 or 4 different ways by now, there probably isn't anything more to add.
    Although because of their higher base protections, health scales better for them. So they've got that going for them.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizlenut View Post
    Clearly I am just barking up the wrong tree here.
    Clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    They don't. Athena's base combo has 150% scaling. Ares has 221% with 8 seconds of Shackles and Searing Flesh. Cabrakan has 210% with Poly, Seismic Crush, Refraction Shield, and one tic of Tremors. Xing Tian has 190% with a full rotation sans ult. Ymir has 120% plus a steroid that adds 20% to each basic attack. All of these gods have strong base damage. Guardians do not have low late-game damage if go bruiser. The "guardians have low damage" shit is a myth that needs to die.
    Athena's dash + pull into ring is 220% if you count two reach basics (35% mp each). But you'll probably will land 3 more basics while they're pulled, totaling 280%.
    Last edited by LuxInterior; 05-09-2018 at 07:25 PM.
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