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Thread: Solo lane guardians

  1. #11
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    Damage DOES have a soft cap... Defense soft cap for magical and physical are both 325. Physical power soft cap is 400, not much higher and it is a lot more common to have power augmenting buffs in a kit than defense augmenting buffs.

    Magical power has a soft cap of 900, and unlike physical power there are only a few gods that can even reach the magical soft cap.(every physical god can reach the physical power soft cap) Bacchus, Scylla, Ao Kuang and possibly Chronos can hit the magical power soft cap. It is especially difficult for Ao Kuang and Chronos, admittedly not that hard for Scylla and Bacchus.

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    Senior Member Chosen RandomToon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizlenut View Post
    you can play a guardian anywhere you want. The question you should ask is why you would want to.

    They do well in the first 10-20 minutes of the game, but then they just start falling flat and its almost impossible to pull them out of that nose dive.

    Thats mostly because they arbitrarily scale less damage. They have a disadvantage (weak scaling) that makes damage weaker (forever) but they don't have an advantage that makes armor better (ever); any character can build armor and be just as effective with it as they can, but they can't build damage and be just as effective with it as others... and resistances soft cap, which further dilutes any advantage they might have, because the reduced damage scaling was in exchange for base defensive stats - which just push you up into the cap sooner and then you don't ever recover the lost damage.

    Damage does not have a soft cap so the "base stats" of the damage classes don't push them up into a cap sooner, and in turn, they get more value out of their base stats.

    They need increased auto attack scaling or give them increased damage from resistances or some way to recover cooldowns faster in combat; they need some way to scale into late game before anyone even starts to give a shit if one is fed.
    The argument is actually quite the opposite - guardians are not that great early and will likely lose lane. Best case scenario, they stalemate the lane (which is basically a win for them). The choice of whichever specific guardian affects how quickly you lose lane, and how far behind you will be when it happens. It is mid-late game during team fights where guardian choices are relevant. Not because of their damage, but because of their control. As opposed to an under leveled duo lane guardian, you will have a guardian who is more or less even in level and build so he can actually front line effectively. Many team fights see duo lane guardians as just speed bumps because they are 3-5 levels and a full item or more behind.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Prestigious LuxInterior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizlenut View Post
    you can play a guardian anywhere you want. The question you should ask is why you would want to.

    They do well in the first 10-20 minutes of the game, but then they just start falling flat and its almost impossible to pull them out of that nose dive.

    Thats mostly because they arbitrarily scale less damage. They have a disadvantage (weak scaling) that makes damage weaker (forever) but they don't have an advantage that makes armor better (ever); any character can build armor and be just as effective with it as they can, but they can't build damage and be just as effective with it as others... and resistances soft cap, which further dilutes any advantage they might have, because the reduced damage scaling was in exchange for base defensive stats - which just push you up into the cap sooner and then you don't ever recover the lost damage.

    Damage does not have a soft cap so the "base stats" of the damage classes don't push them up into a cap sooner, and in turn, they get more value out of their base stats.

    They need increased auto attack scaling or give them increased damage from resistances or some way to recover cooldowns faster in combat; they need some way to scale into late game before anyone even starts to give a shit if one is fed.
    Yeah, guardians have low scaling. As pitiful as Ah Puch, who has less scaling than the top 6 ones (maybe 7, I didn't update Terra).

    Every guardian not named Khepri or Sylvanus can 100-0 squishies and they don't need to go full power for that. Naturally, some are way better than others at that, but there's no such a thing as "pure tank class".

    It's easy to achieve something like 300-400 mp and still be tanky enough to not be a suicide bomber, instead someone who dives behind, gets the kill, potentially screws up the whole enemy team while doing that, because their feared CC is just the same. And, yes, survives to tell, not being just a "Fat Loki".

    The guardians that can kill easily are different from mages in having to be close and taking more time to kill. But we're not talking 15-seconds full tank warrior landing 2.35^35 basics style, but the time of a full rotation. About 3 (Bacchus, Cabrakan, Cerberus) to 8 (Ares) seconds.

    The "full tank or full squishy, nothing in between" mindset stems from people either A) not knowing gods and B) copying pros. Pros play the better strategy in a full-communication, no-matchmaking, heavily-trained context. They also know their enemies beforehand.

    In non-pro games, you have to be independent. That means adapting, choosing different builds, which can mean be more or less tanky according to the situation.

    If you can't get around not always going no-power-no-pen-full-sack-of-potatoes, don't whine when you can't do shit when you all-powerful sqhishies suck.
    Last edited by LuxInterior; 05-09-2018 at 12:35 AM.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    Xing Tian doesn't have good clear, but Sobek does? He doesn't have sustain, but Sobek does? Because that's the implication I'm getting from this.

    And you need to read Xing ahead of time and get lucky as hell to interrupt Furious Roar because it's not a long-ass channel.
    Sobek and Xing Tian don't have amazing clear early, but they do have multiple clear abilities, and they have the bulk and sustain to survive tanking minions between their own kits way of mitigating damage and Warriors Blessing. Sobek has healing for both HP and Mana, a passive that boosts his prots, and multiple ways to interrupt or delay enemy clear. Xing Tian has a way of making minions/gods deal less damage, three abilities for wave clear, and a way of interrupting clear. Artio is Artio, unneededly bloated in every aspect. Cerberus has three abilities for waveclear, a way of stealing healing, self-sustain, and protection shread for better boxing, and a way of interrupting clear. He also can't trade as well as the other's above from mentioned lack of sustain.

    Bacchus has tankiness to stall the wave, but he doesn't have sustain in either department, and will also be missing out on important bonuses in his kit due to lack of Chug early on. By the time you hit Lv. 4 as Bacchus, you'll already be at a gold disadvantage and probably exp too as Bacchus won't be able to rotate for his camps without babysitting.
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    Senior Member Infamous Outso187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    Damage DOES have a soft cap... Defense soft cap for magical and physical are both 325. Physical power soft cap is 400, not much higher and it is a lot more common to have power augmenting buffs in a kit than defense augmenting buffs.

    Magical power has a soft cap of 900, and unlike physical power there are only a few gods that can even reach the magical soft cap.(every physical god can reach the physical power soft cap) Bacchus, Scylla, Ao Kuang and possibly Chronos can hit the magical power soft cap. It is especially difficult for Ao Kuang and Chronos, admittedly not that hard for Scylla and Bacchus.
    Kukulkan goes over the easiest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobis View Post
    Will lose to pretty much any mid-tier Guardian/Warrior solo.

    Has tankiness, but has no self-sustain or clear to compete with other solo laners.

    Cerberus, Sobek, Artio can also all interrupt his Belch clear.
    What does Bacchus have to do with Xing?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Prestigious LuxInterior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outso187 View Post
    What does Bacchus have to do with Xing?
    I think he got confused with "Bellyman".

    Answering your question, Xing seems alright. Gotta try him.
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  7. #17
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    Apparently bellyman doesn't mean Bacchus anymore rip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outso187 View Post
    Kukulkan goes over the easiest.

    Kukulkan actually doesn't reach the soft cap, when i say hitting the soft cap I'm talking about damage that is inhibited by the soft cap. So that if you build more(such as a potion of magical might) your power won't go up. Kukulkan reaches 900 power through the use of conversion buffs, which ignore soft caps.(that is why Fafnir can build over 325 protections)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuxInterior View Post
    I think he got confused with "Bellyman".

    Answering your question, Xing seems alright. Gotta try him.
    Yep. I meant Xing Tian as "Bellyman". Cause you know, his face is on his belly... And chest.
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    Senior Member Infamous PapaRodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuxInterior View Post
    Yeah, guardians have low scaling. As pitiful as Ah Puch, who has less scaling than the top 6 ones (maybe 7, I didn't update Terra).

    Every guardian not named Khepri or Sylvanus can 100-0 squishies and they don't need to go full power for that. Naturally, some are way better than others at that, but there's no such a thing as "pure tank class".

    It's easy to achieve something like 300-400 mp and still be tanky enough to not be a suicide bomber, instead someone who dives behind, gets the kill, potentially screws up the whole enemy team while doing that, because their feared CC is just the same. And, yes, survives to tell, not being just a "Fat Loki".

    The guardians that can kill easily are different from mages in having to be close and taking more time to kill. But we're not talking 15-seconds full tank warrior landing 2.35^35 basics style, but the time of a full rotation. About 3 (Bacchus, Cabrakan, Cerberus) to 8 (Ares) seconds.

    The "full tank or full squishy, nothing in between" mindset stems from people either A) not knowing gods and B) copying pros. Pros play the better strategy in a full-communication, no-matchmaking, heavily-trained context. They also know their enemies beforehand.

    In non-pro games, you have to be independent. That means adapting, choosing different builds, which can mean be more or less tanky according to the situation.

    If you can't get around not always going no-power-no-pen-full-sack-of-potatoes, don't whine when you can't do shit when you all-powerful sqhishies suck.
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    On Topic, people should not sleep on Athena. She has some of the best clearing potencial among the guardians, is a great lane bully and her Ultimate allows for great rotations or basicly free backs without needing teleport, making up for her lack of sustain.

    Kuzenbo with the buffs from the most recent patch is another god that I would pay attention to. Especially with the recent patch changes, he will be a god who in the right hands will be a remarkable bully.
    Last edited by PapaRodin; 05-09-2018 at 11:10 AM.
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