Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 64

Thread: Tyr change stance

  1. #21
    Senior Member Infamous Outso187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    The burned parts of the Potato Kingdom
    Posts
    5,052
    16
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Achievements:
    Tagger Third Class Full Profile! Repped! First Class Repped! Second Class Reputation Distributor
    Rep Power
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    I'll give an example.

    You are in guard stance and switch to assault stance. You immediately use Fearless and Power Cleave.

    After Change Stance 6 second cooldown is finished you change back into guard stance, you still need to wait ANOTHER 6 seconds to change into assault stance to reset the cooldown. Except as already stated, their cooldowns would have already been done by then anyway if the stances had separate cooldowns.

    Change Stance changes the effects of the abilities (like how it changes them for Hel) so it isn't really appropriate to say it resets cooldowns so it is balanced. This would only be appropriate if the difference in cooldown times were more significant.

    If change stance isn't already on cooldown and you are in the assault stance, you can use it to reset fearless and save what 1-2 seconds on the cooldown?(1-2 seconds for fearless/power cleave animation+6 seconds change stance cooldown off of fearless 9 second cooldown). This isn't even consistent since it requires change stance to not already be on cooldown and for you to be in the proper stance.

    Throughout the course of a game, or even 1 fight, you may be expected to use change stance often. So it will not be helping reduce the cooldown on Fearless, and will in fact only be INCREASING the cooldown on Power Cleave(guard stance)
    No, you don't have to wait because you have the same abilities in both stances. They do different things but numbers are the same. None of the other stance changers can shuffle abilities as fast as Tyr (well, Hel can use her 1 little faster but only 1). 40/90/140/190/240 (+50%)x2 + 80/115/150/185/220 (+65%) - switch - 40/90/140/190/240 (+50%) + 80/115/150/185/220 (+65%) - 6secs switch - 40/90/140/190/240 (+50%)x2 + 80/115/150/185/220 (+65%). That's 2100 (+445%) in less than 10secs.

    And when thinking about his kit, don't forget Tyrs great passive. And that he actually has an ultimate. Cause if you make his stance change to have that 1sec cooldown, his ultimate would be removed.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Chosen
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    1,673
    7
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 716
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points 1 year registered Repped! Second Class
    Rep Power
    4
    The numbers aren't the same, as you yourself state in your post. Assault fearless hits twice, that is a pretty large difference. Regardless, this entire argument is based on if Tyr had separate cooldowns for his stances instead of Change Stance having a cooldown. Obviously, that means guard and assault stance abiliities won't be considered a 'reset'. Consider context please.

    Making his switch stance have no cooldown does not mean getting rid of his ultimate, getting rid of his ultimate would require giving him 2 brand new abilities. That is the trade off having an ultimate, you have 1 less ability and the ult has a long cooldown.

    He does not shuffle abilities faster than any other stance switcher. Ullr is the fastest ability shuffler. And again, using 6 abilities in 10 seconds is SITUATIONAL. After using those 6 abilities you must wait 9 seconds to do it again. That means 12 abilities in 29 seconds, saying 6 in 10 doesn't show the whole picture. It also means restricting yourself to that specific combo since if you do anything else you have to set it up and wait for cooldowns again.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Chosen
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    1,673
    7
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 716
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points 1 year registered Repped! Second Class
    Rep Power
    4
    Ullr can use 12 abilities in 10 seconds, see what i did there? Doesn't show the full picture just like when you say 6 abilites in 10 seconds.

    A much more appropriate representation is to say all 6 of Ullr's abilities are on a 6 second cooldown when you spam his abilities and he has max CDR. 9 second cooldown -3 seconds from passive as each stance has 3 abilities. Every 6 seconds you can use all 6 of his abilities in the same order you used them the first time. That is a lot faster than Tyr.

    You want to only talk numbers, fine. 1015 +300% every 6 seconds.

    Or 2030 +600% in 10 seconds!(if i start with nothing on cooldown like you are in your example)

  4. #24
    Senior Member Infamous Outso187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    The burned parts of the Potato Kingdom
    Posts
    5,052
    16
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Achievements:
    Tagger Third Class Full Profile! Repped! First Class Repped! Second Class Reputation Distributor
    Rep Power
    14
    Where do you get that 9 seconds? Also, if we talk about situational things, Tyr is much more likely to build CDR than Ullr so there's that. And yes, assault and guard stance abilities are considered a reset cause it's the same ability, even the name is the same (unlike other stance changers). Also, if you make his stance change have no cooldown, his ultimate needs to be removed and he needs another, weaker basic ability.

    And I literally have no idea where you come up with these numbers for Ullr. His cooldowns are 14, 16 and 15secs. -1sec per ability used. And you don't usually build any CDR on Ullr.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Chosen
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    1,673
    7
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 716
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points 1 year registered Repped! Second Class
    Rep Power
    4
    Also, just to show how having an ult doesn't really matter with its 42 second cooldown lets go ahead and calculate all ability based damage in that timeframe.

    Tyr
    5 assault fearless 2650 +500%
    5 assault cleave 1260 +325%
    2 guard fearless 480 +100%
    2 guard cleave 440 +130%
    Ult 510 +120%

    That'd be 5340 +1175%

    Ullr then would use his full kit 7 times

    7105 +2100%

  6. #26
    Senior Member Chosen
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    1,673
    7
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 716
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points 1 year registered Repped! Second Class
    Rep Power
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Outso187 View Post
    Where do you get that 9 seconds? Also, if we talk about situational things, Tyr is much more likely to build CDR than Ullr so there's that. And yes, assault and guard stance abilities are considered a reset cause it's the same ability, even the name is the same (unlike other stance changers). Also, if you make his stance change have no cooldown, his ultimate needs to be removed and he needs another, weaker basic ability.

    And I literally have no idea where you come up with these numbers for Ullr. His cooldowns are 14, 16 and 15secs. -1sec per ability used. And you don't usually build any CDR on Ullr.
    9 seconds comes from max CDR... 15 with 40% CDR is 9 seconds 14 is 8.4 and 16 is 9.6

    Just because you might not build max CDR on Ullr doesn't mean nobody will. Transcendence, Jotunn's Wrath, Soul Eater/Hydra's/blue buff whatever easy to get max CDR.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Infamous Outso187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    The burned parts of the Potato Kingdom
    Posts
    5,052
    16
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Achievements:
    Tagger Third Class Full Profile! Repped! First Class Repped! Second Class Reputation Distributor
    Rep Power
    14
    It's still 6 seconds since stance switch resets the cooldown. And you're trying to tell me that ult doesn't matter? 510 +120% doesn't matter? Ullr might do whatever damage during that time but ult is all that damage in that moment, instantly. Thats why you usually have mid lane mage with a huge aoe ultimate, to burst secure objectives.

    And only item of those that is consistently seen on Ullr builds, is Trans. So that's 10%. Later on maybe blue buff too when your solo doesn't need it anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    Also, just to show how having an ult doesn't really matter with its 42 second cooldown lets go ahead and calculate all ability based damage in that timeframe.

    Tyr
    5 assault fearless 2650 +500%
    5 assault cleave 1260 +325%
    2 guard fearless 480 +100%
    2 guard cleave 440 +130%
    Ult 510 +120%

    That'd be 5340 +1175%

    Ullr then would use his full kit 7 times

    7105 +2100%
    How do you count 5 assault fearlesses but only 2 guard? Also, i guess you count Ullrs whole kits damage on that? But how often you use your leap to damage?
    Last edited by Outso187; 04-14-2018 at 12:19 PM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Chosen
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    1,673
    7
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 716
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points 1 year registered Repped! Second Class
    Rep Power
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Outso187 View Post
    It's still 6 seconds since stance switch resets the cooldown. And you're trying to tell me that ult doesn't matter? 510 +120% doesn't matter? Ullr might do whatever damage during that time but ult is all that damage in that moment, instantly. Thats why you usually have mid lane mage with a huge aoe ultimate, to burst secure objectives.

    And only item of those that is consistently seen on Ullr builds, is Trans. So that's 10%. Later on maybe blue buff too when your solo doesn't need it anymore.



    How do you count 5 assault fearlesses but only 2 guard? Also, i guess you count Ullrs whole kits damage on that? But how often you use your leap to damage?
    I counted 5 assault versions because i didn't want to leave out the beginning of his 3rd combo as his ult comes off cooldown. The combos is, assault/switch/guard/wait 6 secs/switch/assault/wait 9 secs/assault/switch/guard/etc etc

    I could have used only 4 assault abilities 2 guard abilties, but that would be unfair to Tyr. I could also only use Ullr's full kit 6 times and he'd still be pretty far ahead.

    You might not use Ullr's leap for damage often, but then i hardly ever use Tyr's guard stance dash for damage either. Even of we cut those out I assure you Ullr will still have more damage. His scaling is way too far ahead for cutting out 1 of his abilities to matter that much.

    And sure burst is nice for securing last hit, it also has its downsides in combat. Stone of Fal for countering magical burst in the truest sense. Honestly Celestial Legion Helm helps a lot in countering physical bursts. Regardless this isn't about securing an objective with a long cooldown ability, its about pumping out damage quickly. I showed dps over the course of Tyr's ults cooldown to show specifically what his ult brings to the game as a whole. I already showed dps over the short term 10 seconds when not including the ult since it has a long cooldon and therefore isn't a reliable example to list within the 10 second timeframe.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Infamous Outso187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    The burned parts of the Potato Kingdom
    Posts
    5,052
    16
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 508
    Achievements:
    Tagger Third Class Full Profile! Repped! First Class Repped! Second Class Reputation Distributor
    Rep Power
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    I counted 5 assault versions because i didn't want to leave out the beginning of his 3rd combo as his ult comes off cooldown. The combos is, assault/switch/guard/wait 6 secs/switch/assault/wait 9 secs/assault/switch/guard/etc etc

    I could have used only 4 assault abilities 2 guard abilties, but that would be unfair to Tyr. I could also only use Ullr's full kit 6 times and he'd still be pretty far ahead.

    You might not use Ullr's leap for damage often, but then i hardly ever use Tyr's guard stance dash for damage either. Even of we cut those out I assure you Ullr will still have more damage. His scaling is way too far ahead for cutting out 1 of his abilities to matter that much.

    And sure burst is nice for securing last hit, it also has its downsides in combat. Stone of Fal for countering magical burst in the truest sense. Honestly Celestial Legion Helm helps a lot in countering physical bursts. Regardless this isn't about securing an objective with a long cooldown ability, its about pumping out damage quickly. I showed dps over the course of Tyr's ults cooldown to show specifically what his ult brings to the game as a whole. I already showed dps over the short term 10 seconds when not including the ult since it has a long cooldon and therefore isn't a reliable example to list within the 10 second timeframe.
    Tyr is a warrior for f***s sake. He is a solo laner. Frontliner. He isn't meant to be a damage dealer. Ullr is. Can you just f***ing understand that.


  10. #30
    Senior Member Chosen
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    1,673
    7
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 716
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points 1 year registered Repped! Second Class
    Rep Power
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Outso187 View Post
    Tyr is a warrior for f***s sake. He is a solo laner. Frontliner. He isn't meant to be a damage dealer. Ullr is. Can you just f***ing understand that.

    Except you were saying how powerful it is and how he can spam abilities more than any other stance switcher.... I'm just providing evidence against that

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •