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Thread: Thoughts on Sylvanus

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    Senior Member Honoured RamenFrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    And again(since I can't edit on these forums...) Chang'e already heals her own wave just as much and more often so him healing his wave isn't an issue. With everything currently in the game right now, there is no reason his wisps shouldn't be allowed to affect minions.
    The difference being that Sylvanus has higher hp/defense scaling than Chang'e, not to mention CC. He actually can work in solo currently if you build him for it.

    We've already gone through him being able to do exactly as you said and it was removed in early S3 I think because Dual lane was basically instantly lost in pressure if a Sylv was picked into it unless the player didn't know how to left click. If we try to cater to him being flexible in solo we end up breaking him in the dual lane and potentially other unforeseen areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RamenFrog View Post
    The difference being that Sylvanus has higher hp/defense scaling than Chang'e, not to mention CC. He actually can work in solo currently if you build him for it.

    We've already gone through him being able to do exactly as you said and it was removed in early S3 I think because Dual lane was basically instantly lost in pressure if a Sylv was picked into it unless the player didn't know how to left click. If we try to cater to him being flexible in solo we end up breaking him in the dual lane and potentially other unforeseen areas.
    I fail to see how it'd be instantly lost in pressure, Cerberus would already be a pretty direct counter to Sylvanus in such a situation, stealing heals from an entire wave plus shredding any bonus protections added while pressuring just as hard...

    Again I don't know what things were like at the time when he may have had such an ability, but with its current base numbers and scaling compared to everyone we have in game right now there is no reason for it not to affect minions.

    We have gods that heal minions, we even have gods that give bonus defenses to minions(Isis, cabraken, Ares) and we have plenty of counters to these effects as well. We need to balance for compositions sure, but we need to balance on an individual level as well. Right now sylvanus only really has 1 ability to attack a wave, and typically only half the wave at that. And it happens to be his main hard CC.

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    Trash Doggo Demigod Goobis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    And again(since I can't edit on these forums...) Chang'e already heals her own wave just as much and more often so him healing his wave isn't an issue. With everything currently in the game right now, there is no reason his wisps shouldn't be allowed to affect minions.
    There are plenty of reasons why he shouldn't be allowed to heal and give prots, you just aren't taking them.

    Sylvanus was created specifically with support in mind. Not a solo laner, not a jungler, a support. In higher areas of play all of his adjustments have been made due to his support strength. If you want to do solo Sylvanus, go right on ahead, anything works in casuals, you don't need his ability buffed to busted strength to do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goobis View Post
    There are plenty of reasons why he shouldn't be allowed to heal and give prots, you just aren't taking them.

    Sylvanus was created specifically with support in mind. Not a solo laner, not a jungler, a support. In higher areas of play all of his adjustments have been made due to his support strength. If you want to do solo Sylvanus, go right on ahead, anything works in casuals, you don't need his ability buffed to busted strength to do that.
    I'm not asking to raise any numbers though.... You say there are reasons why he shouldn't be allowed to heal or give protections to minions but no one has really said any reasons....

    Change heals minions, hel heals minions, guan yu heals minions, I'd have to check whether or not Isis or hades heal minions.

    Ares buffs minion defense, cabrakan buffs minion defense, I'd have to check with Isis to be sure but her ult should buff minion defense. Don't know if there are more or not, would have to actually log on and start looking to go into further detail.

    Since I wasn't playing back when his wisps affected minions I can't know what his base numbers and scaling were like compared to everyone at the time. However, I can say that right now it is basically Chang'e heal only over time instead of instant, and of course a 50% longer cooldown. That doesn't seem like a very OP move to me. In fact, with how fast minion clear is I'd think his wave wouldn't even receive the full effect most of the time. Chang'e heal being instant she can usually get her minions to survive an extra hit or 2, Sylvanus under those same conditions would be lucky therefore to get the same results(since his is over time).

    Also, if originally his wisps did affect minions I'd think he was created to be able to affect minions. At the time they just found it to be too much, whether that is still the case or not has yet to be seen(there have been a lot of changes since then).

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    Senior Member Honoured RamenFrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    I'm not asking to raise any numbers though.... You say there are reasons why he shouldn't be allowed to heal or give protections to minions but no one has really said any reasons....

    Change heals minions, hel heals minions, guan yu heals minions, I'd have to check whether or not Isis or hades heal minions.

    Ares buffs minion defense, cabrakan buffs minion defense, I'd have to check with Isis to be sure but her ult should buff minion defense. Don't know if there are more or not, would have to actually log on and start looking to go into further detail.

    Since I wasn't playing back when his wisps affected minions I can't know what his base numbers and scaling were like compared to everyone at the time. However, I can say that right now it is basically Chang'e heal only over time instead of instant, and of course a 50% longer cooldown. That doesn't seem like a very OP move to me. In fact, with how fast minion clear is I'd think his wave wouldn't even receive the full effect most of the time. Chang'e heal being instant she can usually get her minions to survive an extra hit or 2, Sylvanus under those same conditions would be lucky therefore to get the same results(since his is over time).

    Also, if originally his wisps did affect minions I'd think he was created to be able to affect minions. At the time they just found it to be too much, whether that is still the case or not has yet to be seen(there have been a lot of changes since then).
    As far as I'm aware his numbers haven't changed much outside of maybe his wisps getting longer cooldowns, I'd have to pull it up but I'm half suffering a fever at the moment.

    As for your argument with various other people being able to heal minions, Guan Yu used to be an obnoxious pick before they buried him into the ground with nerfs and changes with his passive. He was a major support pick back in S3 into early S4 if I remember. Chang'e, Hel, Isis and Hades have all functions more or less alone in their lanes respectively simply because they were designed to do so.

    With that in mind, if you say, took Chang'e into a support role, it's plausible but she couldn't peel for her team very well outside of her ult and saving her own bum in the process with her 2. She also doesn't have unblockable AoEs as a basic attack. We can look a bit to Izanami and her early lane pressure for reference on how obnoxious that can be.

    As for Ares and Cabraken, buffing defenses on a minion wave is not the same as buffing and healing said wave. Their push (outside of Cabraken having blue buff) is also significantly less as well. Ares could potentially flex into solo but he'd probably need some babysitting from the jungler until level 7 or more depending on circumstances.

    Just because Hi-Rez had it at one point didn't mean it was warranted, case in point with Skadi being broke as crap during most of S4 with her ice rink being the size of the Titan room with free sprints every 12 seconds.

  6. #46
    Member Follower Yuls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RamenFrog View Post
    As far as I'm aware his numbers haven't changed much outside of maybe his wisps getting longer cooldowns, I'd have to pull it up but I'm half suffering a fever at the moment.

    As for your argument with various other people being able to heal minions, Guan Yu used to be an obnoxious pick before they buried him into the ground with nerfs and changes with his passive. He was a major support pick back in S3 into early S4 if I remember. Chang'e, Hel, Isis and Hades have all functions more or less alone in their lanes respectively simply because they were designed to do so.

    With that in mind, if you say, took Chang'e into a support role, it's plausible but she couldn't peel for her team very well outside of her ult and saving her own bum in the process with her 2. She also doesn't have unblockable AoEs as a basic attack. We can look a bit to Izanami and her early lane pressure for reference on how obnoxious that can be.

    As for Ares and Cabraken, buffing defenses on a minion wave is not the same as buffing and healing said wave. Their push (outside of Cabraken having blue buff) is also significantly less as well. Ares could potentially flex into solo but he'd probably need some babysitting from the jungler until level 7 or more depending on circumstances.

    Just because Hi-Rez had it at one point didn't mean it was warranted, case in point with Skadi being broke as crap during most of S4 with her ice rink being the size of the Titan room with free sprints every 12 seconds.
    When Skadi was meta for that long in S4 it was a nightmare in duo lane. You just could never fight into her! And her team fighting was just crazy at the same time. Usually the trade off for being bad in lane is you make up for it with a great team fight. But when you have both with little to no weakness it's broken! Win lane and win game easy!

    But I'm not a fan of hunters with auto aim stuff in their kits, and it's even worse when they are meta because even a brain dead player can play them and do a lot of work without much thought. Chiron meta would probably be the worst thing ever for duo lane. I already think Hachiman with his no brain kit is not fun to fight as it is right now. I wish they would stop making hunters with auto aim kits where you just hit your 4 key or whatever it's on.

    Just give me a duo meta with gods like Rama, Jing Wei, and Anhur where there is no BS going on in their kits, and not a bunch of AoE in their kits that you can't miss. The biggest AoE thing being Jing Wei ult there which you can play around easy with nothing more than damage on it that you have enough time to aegis or dodge out of it. I guess there is Anhur 1, but that's only a slow and nothing too crazy. That's the dream duo lane meta for me with those 3 gods being the best hunters!
    Last edited by Yuls; 02-15-2018 at 10:26 AM.

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