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Thread: [HiRezAjax] Damage Values in SMITE

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    Senior Member Prestigious GongsunYiru's Avatar
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    [HiRezAjax] Damage Values in SMITE

    As stated by HiRezAjax (source):

    There are currently no plans to make widespread changes to damage values in SMITE.

    Here are some reasons for this:

    • We want to launch into Season 5 Conquest with some level of familiarity.
      We are already drastically changing the map and changing many things that will solve current frustrations. If we combined a change of this magnitude with widespread god changes it would be hard to predict how the game will play, and would be jarring to players.
    • Patch 5.1 god balance is intentionally less extreme than previous new season patches because of the above reason.
      We know that some things will become stronger on the new map, like mobility and global ultimates. We also learned a lot about balance at the highest level through HRX. We can preemptively act on issues like those, but many other things will have less predictable results. The patch will still be significantly larger than an average balance patch, but it wont be as extreme as last year. We will be monitoring the stats and feedback closely after 5.1 launches to plan future adjustments. In 5.1 we will be making some big changes specifically to Mage class items to solve issues that are unrelated to the new map.
    • God’s strengths in Conquest and other SMITE game modes within the current systems are already well understood.
      SMITE has been a living, breathing game for years now. Balance patches happen every two weeks and the playerbase, as well as the devs, have a pretty solid idea of what kind of gods are capable of what types of plays. We would like to keep these expectations reasonable and we would rather make smaller changes that players can adjust to gradually.
    • Changing damage values might solve some issues, but often times those same issues can be solved with more specific changes.
      Sweeping changes across all gods will certainly have unintended effects. Directly targeting those issues could solve the problem without affecting other parts of the game in unexpected ways.
    • Most of the problems that generated this discussion specifically pertain to Conquest.
      Although we usually make balance changes only around Conquest, it is very important that we monitor the health of the other game modes too. The other game modes in SMITE are extremely important to the game’s overall health and popularity. Statistically speaking, a large majority of our players play multiple different game modes on a daily basis. It is very likely that a change like this could have negative results in the other modes.

    PART 2: Looking Forward to Season 5

    So with those reasons in mind, the design team approached Conquest issues and tried to solve them in more specific ways for the new season. This is a great discussion topic because it reveals more info about the core philosophies of SMITE and how we plan to focus on those points while still optimizing the game in other ways.

    S4 Concern: Tanky gods deal too much damage. S5 Discussion:

    • Tanks do damage in SMITE. This is very intentional. This was decided long before I started working on the game. It is something I loved as a SMITE player and something I was happy to uphold as I became a Hi-Rez employee. The first designers on SMITE wanted to make sure all types of gods felt impactful to the game. Specifically, they wanted it to be possible for all types of gods to get kills.
    • We found that you can satisfy players cravings to play “support” characters while still allowing them to do some damage.
    • Making tanky gods deal very little damage means we would have to increase their support skills, resulting in gods with extreme differences from the rest of the game. Often times taking things to the extreme results in more harm than good. It causes polarization in opinions, balance difficulties, and can fail to meet expectations.
    • We want to make sure we can check and counter the power of tanky gods, but there are better ways to do this than to make their damage significantly lower. In Season 5 we are introducing some new Items to help DPS gods specifically deal more damage to tanky targets at the cost of raw DPS to other squishies. We would rather all of the gods die on the battlefield than none of them die. This level of choice and counter-play should be much more fun and flexible than reducing Warrior and Guardian base damage values.
    • We also monitor the statistics of all gods, and there is a clear correlation in damage dealt. Warriors and Guardians definitively do less damage than other classes. Sure, these gods have high damage potential with certain builds, but the core rules of SMITE make it very hard to win without a true tank. If you build full damage on a guardian you will surely perish faster than a true tank build.
    • We will continue to tweak items and gods individually to see how the meta progresses in order to keep the balance here.

    S4 Concern: SMITE has no early game or laning phase. S5 Discussion:

    • This is purely a Conquest pacing issue. We definitely want to look for Conquest only solutions.
    • This is also intentional. In SMITE we intend to ramp up the action to team fights fairly early. However, in Season 4 we agree that it has become too fast and punishing. In Season 5 you will see many changes to slow down the early game more and keep people closer in level.
    • Lane Minions are getting tankier and early XP sources are being lowered. We will adjust the late game to making sure matches still end in a timely manner to go along with this.
    • SMITE is designed to focus on action game mechanics. SMITE has less focus on last hits, and more focus on movement and dealing damage. We intend players of all lanes to move into their jungles and kill more things between waves, or challenge their opponents during this time. In Season 5 we very specifically kept at least one objective near each lane for this purpose. This is our definition of the early game in competitive SMITE. However, we also added more space between lanes to make it harder to clean sweep entire jungle areas, and to put more weight on player’s decisions involving rotations as the game progresses.

    S4 Concern: Gaining a level advantage is too powerful. S5 Discussion:

    • This may be true in SMITE, but progression to gain an advantage over your opponent is a core mechanic in the game.
    • Conquest is also the game mode where you tend to see the most level disparity between players, so again we would want to look at Conquest only solutions.
    • We are implementing a large set of XP changes in Season 5 Conquest to make it more difficult to gain an early level advantage. Teams will have to make more decisions about which members of their teams will get more solo farm, and thus be higher level.
    • In previous Seasons we have seen players adjust their strategies to allow certain god classes to farm more and level up over others. This can happen even when there are no major design changes to cause such a shift. We encourage the evolution of the meta in ways like this and we would hate to stifle creativity or to force one class to always be the best pick for solo farming.
    • These changes will also heavily reduce the amount of snowball in the game, especially in the early game, alleviating this concern at the most punishing time of a match.

    Many of these points were decided on during the earliest parts of SMITE development and I believe they are crucial to our success over the years. The game was intended to be fast, have lots of kills, and less farming. This is the foundation that SMITE was built on, and we will continue to build with these goals in mind.

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    Senior Member Honoured S1itz's Avatar
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    (...) but progression to gain an advantage over your opponent is a core mechanic in the game
    The game was intended to be fast, have lots of kills, and less farming.
    You can't have fast game with less farming when levels give so much advantage and can be farmed solo.

    But keep living in your own world and enjoy Arena being SMITE's main mode for another 3 years.

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    Super Moderator Godlike RainbowSplat's Avatar
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    Cant wait for the PTS
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1itz View Post
    You can't have fast game with less farming when levels give so much advantage and can be farmed solo.

    But keep living in your own world and enjoy Arena being SMITE's main mode for another 3 years.
    people like the other game modes because the expectations placed upon them are lower.

    Players that overwhelmingly insist on adhering to an unseen and elusive 'meta' is exactly what causes extra stress within that game mode and that stress is exactly why people don't play it as much.

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    Member Worshipper VlentisFlyheightis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pizlenut View Post
    people like the other game modes because the expectations placed upon them are lower.

    Players that overwhelmingly insist on adhering to an unseen and elusive 'meta' is exactly what causes extra stress within that game mode and that stress is exactly why people don't play it as much.
    Not to mention some gods thrive better in non conquest modes. Bastet to the casual player is a rough choice in conquest but can be queen of the joust map. Ares THRIVES in the arena where 5v5 is from the getgo whereas laning he's a weak pick and truly has to support. Assassins in general suffer in assault because theres no ambush points.

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    Lord of the Enigs Infamous Enigmatisty's Avatar
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    Everyone's worried about guardians, I'm worried about mages. Tahuti is practically forced on them and if they don't build it they deal horrible damage late-game while having little to no build diversity. Hunters and assassins can go crit and pen depending on if they focus tanks or squishies and tanks can go tank or bruiser but mages are shoehorned into Tahuti and Shard with absolutely no diversity.
    I'm pretty much trying to reclaim my lost ELO and sticking to a few gods rn. Mostly playing Cern and maybe Daji.

    If you ask for balance changes on a god without a reason that can be properly justified, then this is the place to train for persuasion.

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    Senior Member Honoured Ravensaurus's Avatar
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    Hunters has been OP since like what, Season 2? And people still bitching about Guardian's damage? Really?!

    What's the matter, afraid of the dark?!

    Mind you give me some chips with that ammount of salt you have?
    Mmmmm... So good!


    Official Kuzenbo cultist, reptile nerd, snake lady lover.

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    Member Follower SkizoSkilz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatisty View Post
    Everyone's worried about guardians, I'm worried about mages. Tahuti is practically forced on them and if they don't build it they deal horrible damage late-game while having little to no build diversity. Hunters and assassins can go crit and pen depending on if they focus tanks or squishies and tanks can go tank or bruiser but mages are shoehorned into Tahuti and Shard with absolutely no diversity.
    Tbh most meta mages will still deal brain damaging damage numbers without rod and Shard is totally not a must pick, mages have far more build diversity than hunters, hunter literally have 2 builds.

    "If you build full damage on a guardian you will surely perish faster than a true tank build."
    These statements tho.
    Last edited by SkizoSkilz; 01-12-2018 at 06:39 AM.

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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Lakedaemonios's Avatar
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    Arrow S4 Concern: Ajax should be fired.

    Quoting from Ajax:


    S4 Concern: Tanky gods deal too much damage.


    "We want to make sure we can check and counter the power of tanky gods, but there are better ways to do this than to make their damage significantly lower. In Season 5 we are introducing some new Items to help DPS gods specifically deal more damage to tanky targets at the cost of raw DPS to other squishies. We would rather all of the gods die on the battlefield than none of them die."


    So, in every clash or siege match you play, the person who fills has to pick a frontliner, and in every Conquest game support is the least wanted position because of the same reason: the amount of burst and damage in the game, specially from DPS classes, is insane to the point that tank characters dont last anything in the frontline - not to mention other facts such as support being always behind on level and gold -, resulting in the fact that frontliners are the least played in this community, no matter the mode you look at, and allegations such as "this is a tank meta" are simply put foward by players out of touch or who simply never play frontliners but are dps mains who rage when they get killed because of being out of position;


    I'd suggest to spare us having to witness such abhorrant balancing and simply remove warriors and guardians from the game, since the meta is sooo hard on the poor adcs and dps gods, we really should give them the possibility to position themselves wherever they want and to do whatever they please; I think we can all agree that the burst gods and the dps classes are clearly unfairly treated by this game; sure they do more damage than frontliners but, whats the point if the frontliners can tank, even if its just a little bit? clearly tanks should do less damage and tank less when put against adcs; but then why have tanks? lets get rid of this opressive class of characters and have the game be more of a burst fest than it already is!

    Adcs of the world, unite!

    Or, on the other hand, we could actually push for something sensible for once, and remove ajax, since every little single decision he puts foward is completely wrong and grotesque... Oh btw, did I mention he doesnt play Conquest at all?

    Whatever, youre killing your games out of your own volition anyways, just look at Paladins; I'd find something else to play when your bad decisionmaking invades smite.

    Ignore the tier lists full of dps gods in the top (such as ullr, amc, hachiman, etc), they all just memes
    Last edited by Lakedaemonios; 01-12-2018 at 10:42 AM.

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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Lakedaemonios's Avatar
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    Heres the info, for those of you wondering:

    https://hirezajax.tumblr.com/post/16...alues-in-smite

    Interesting how in the same discussion he states that: "We also monitor the statistics of all gods, and there is a clear correlation in damage dealt. Warriors and Guardians definitively do less damage than other classes."

    But what can I say? this babbling man keeps contradicting himself more than doing any meaningful balance in this game; I'm disappointed but not surprised. for those of you not willing to read, the entire post is extremely abstract, riddled with general and blank statements, promises, and nothing of substance really; not to mention the contradictions in it; resuming: its trash.
    Last edited by Lakedaemonios; 01-12-2018 at 10:48 AM.

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