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Thread: Why Hi-Rez doesn't discourage Smurfing?

  1. #11
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    your fat guy picture doesn't work right because the fat guy started the match fat. All players start at the same level with the same amount of gold.

    They can't stop smurfs in any game with a MM and free accounts. Any new player attempting to play a game like this that is free AND has a MM should already be aware of this.

    Back in my day there wasn't a MM for games, you had shit pings, your modem disconnected all the FUCKING TIME, busy signals, snow, hills, barefoot, and you got your fucking ass kicked by stacks of overwhelmingly good players ALL ON ONE TEAM all day long. We also talked shit to each other constantly (EVEN THE OTHER TEAM COULD TALK TO YOU, OMG), and we were normally total fucking dicks. It was an accepted AND expected part of gaming... really, I wonder how gaming survived at all with all of that going on scaring off "newbies".

    now where are we? Sitting here complaining that the MM system isn't providing a fair enough experience for you? Its not funneling enough wins to you? I used to have to tear down entire teams of fat guys and you're crying about one POSSIBLY leaking into your game... that isn't even allowed to speak to you? Weakest of the weak sauces. You don't even have to deal with the trash talking and its still too scary to face them? The MM needs to put them in their own little corner, and away from you?

    pfft. PFFFTTTTTTTT.

  2. #12
    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead BleuPrince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittlePebble02 View Post
    Then give some way to stop this so called promotion of Smurfs.
    For Starters
    1. Write up a policy on Smurfing. Send a clear, loud and unambiguous message condemning smurfing. Here is an example:
    Quote Originally Posted by LOL
    League of Legends uses a mathematical system to match up players of similar skill in the "Normal" and "Ranked" game types. The basic priorities of the system are (in respective order):

    Protect new players
    Create fair and competitive matches
    Make games less toxic by matching you with the right players
    Although the official RIOT policy fell short of condemning Smurfs. Like many other popular online games, LOL and DOTA2 have bigger problems, namely player bots, account buying/selling and illegally boosting MMR.

    2. Refine the current Matchmaking rating (MMR) system to be able to quickly detect smurfs. You technically don't need a system to prove someone is a smurf, all the MMR needs to do is quickly match "really good players" with and against other "really good players" regardless of their player level even in Normal/Casual queues. Smurfs, who are performing above and beyond their expected level, will automatically be detected (i.e. those lvl 7 doing 14 kills, 0 deaths; or those lvl 11 with win ratios of 60%, those with big winning streak, etc... ) Players with these stats are not your typical new players. Regardless, they are too good to be match against other genuine players of their same level, they need to be matched with better players ensuring matches continue to be challenging.

    In Overwatch, on average any smurfs will be detected within 15 matches and subsequently matched against other higher level players according to Jeff Kaplan, Game Director and Vice President of Blizzard. In my opinion even 15 matches is still not good enough, 15 matches would mean a single smurf could potentially affect 135 players (on both team). Ideally the MMR should be smart enough to detect any smurfs within 5 matches.

    TLDR: It is wrong for SMITE's MMR to use Player Level as its prime determinant for matchmaking. It should instead, match players according to their "Skill Level".

    Future consideration:
    3. DOTA 2 has implemented prime matchmaking; requiring a cell phone number attached to your account. Their Smurfs are more destructive and affects ranked matches, smurfs on SMITE are mainly found in casual/normal queues.
    Quote Originally Posted by VALVE
    Players using multiple accounts create a negative matchmaking experience at all skill brackets, so our goal is to add just enough friction to this process that the number of players doing this will be noticeably reduced. Having more players using their primary accounts will have a positive effect on both Ranked and Unranked Matchmaking.
    4. A lvl 160 player is allowed to party a lvl 1 player on SMITE. And when they queue, the MMR will "be forced" to place them in a match. No matter how you look at it, it will never be a fair or a competitive match, more like piggybag carry. In DOTA2, players can opt to queue for Strict Solo Matchmaking (i.e. everyone is guaranteed to be solo players, no parties allowed)

    5. Self declaration. When you create a new account on DOTA, you will be greeted with this:

    I am unsure, how DOTA2 uses this information for matchmaking. But it is definitely possible to use them to help identify smurfs and segregate them from other new players. This is something both DOTA2 and LOL can never achieve: Identification via IP address and computer id. Unlike SMITE, there is a large community of DOTA2 and LOL players using internet cafe /cybercafe. The objective was never to prevent players from creating multiple accounts, but instead, to signal to "any would be smurfs", the revised MMR system will quickly identify them, and match them against other high level players which they would be facing anyways on their main account. If players are still determined to smurf, its possible to group every account with a similar IP address and PC ID as the same, and only consider its highest MMR level.
    Last edited by BleuPrince; 12-18-2017 at 05:04 AM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BleuPrince View Post
    As a new player to SMITE and MOBA,

    1. I don't quite understand why Hi Rez doesn't discourage Smurfing? specifically in Normal matches?
    If it's a normal match then it doesn't have much in the way of guaranteed match making - it's a random basically and the teams are random. There's plenty of other reasons why players play better/worse - perhaps your solo never plays solo ranked and is just having a laugh, or perhaps they are trying out some dodgy build. Their solo is then going to get ahead and snowball even if he's nothing special. Once you snowball in this game you are going to get a good k/d.

    If you want a balanced mm then theoretically you should play ranked as that will attempt to balance player levels and people are more likely to be playing roles they are good at with builds they know work.
    Last edited by DeathByDribbling; 12-18-2017 at 09:18 AM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BleuPrince View Post
    For Starters
    1. Write up a policy on Smurfing. Send a clear, loud and unambiguous message condemning smurfing. Here is an example:

    Although the official RIOT policy fell short of condemning Smurfs. Like many other popular online games, LOL and DOTA2 have bigger problems, namely player bots, account buying/selling and illegally boosting MMR.

    2. Refine the current Matchmaking rating (MMR) system to be able to quickly detect smurfs. You technically don't need a system to prove someone is a smurf, all the MMR needs to do is quickly match "really good players" with and against other "really good players" regardless of their player level even in Normal/Casual queues. Smurfs, who are performing above and beyond their expected level, will automatically be detected (i.e. those lvl 7 doing 14 kills, 0 deaths; or those lvl 11 with win ratios of 60%, those with big winning streak, etc... ) Players with these stats are not your typical new players. Regardless, they are too good to be match against other genuine players of their same level, they need to be matched with better players ensuring matches continue to be challenging.

    In Overwatch, on average any smurfs will be detected within 15 matches and subsequently matched against other higher level players according to Jeff Kaplan, Game Director and Vice President of Blizzard. In my opinion even 15 matches is still not good enough, 15 matches would mean a single smurf could potentially affect 135 players (on both team). Ideally the MMR should be smart enough to detect any smurfs within 5 matches.

    TLDR: It is wrong for SMITE's MMR to use Player Level as its prime determinant for matchmaking. It should instead, match players according to their "Skill Level".

    Future consideration:
    3. DOTA 2 has implemented prime matchmaking; requiring a cell phone number attached to your account. Their Smurfs are more destructive and affects ranked matches, smurfs on SMITE are mainly found in casual/normal queues.


    4. A lvl 160 player is allowed to party a lvl 1 player on SMITE. And when they queue, the MMR will "be forced" to place them in a match. No matter how you look at it, it will never be a fair or a competitive match, more like piggybag carry. In DOTA2, players can opt to queue for Strict Solo Matchmaking (i.e. everyone is guaranteed to be solo players, no parties allowed)

    5. Self declaration. When you create a new account on DOTA, you will be greeted with this:

    I am unsure, how DOTA2 uses this information for matchmaking. But it is definitely possible to use them to help identify smurfs and segregate them from other new players. This is something both DOTA2 and LOL can never achieve: Identification via IP address and computer id. Unlike SMITE, there is a large community of DOTA2 and LOL players using internet cafe /cybercafe. The objective was never to prevent players from creating multiple accounts, but instead, to signal to "any would be smurfs", the revised MMR system will quickly identify them, and match them against other high level players which they would be facing anyways on their main account. If players are still determined to smurf, its possible to group every account with a similar IP address and PC ID as the same, and only consider its highest MMR level.
    Im on my phone, and have no idea how to break quotes up...

    1. Totally fine with this. I don't think it will make some huge difference either way but I've no problem with the attempt.

    2. I'd say 15 games is fine.... The lower your data pool the easier it is to make mistakes. Say someone just starts and the go 32/0, doesn't mean they are a smurf or even that they are really good. They could have simply been put against horribly bad newbies and just got kills instead of pushing objectives because nobody know what they are doing. (My sister and her ex are both horrible at this game, like I'm sitting there not even trying and their dying to my minion wave. They are prime examples of what can make someone look like a smurf)

    3. What about ppl who don't own a phone? Or family members who share a line? This seems more like an exclusive community thing... Personally I don't like linking a phone number to anything.(I don't even have cell service)

    4. I don't mind this, however you'll have to accept what that'd mean for queue times. After the 3min mark will that requirement be dropped?(when most MM requirements are dropped it would seem) Would it be dropped after 10mins? Keep in mind as well that you don't have to be the person who waited whatever duration, the ppl in a party may have waited that long and got matched with you. If it is simply never dropped regardless of wait times it could make problems on either end(ppl playing but not enough solo for 2 full teams/ppl playing but nobody else in parties/ppl meet these requirements but the MMR are vastly apart)

    5. They could do this, but it doesn't help with actual smurfs at all.... They could just lie.

    It only really helps with honest new players, and even then it is still better off relying on MMR. Someone could put I've played a game similar to smite or even I've played smite, but end up so bad they never leave the beginner ranks of MMR anyway....

  5. #15
    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead BleuPrince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    1. Totally fine with this. I don't think it will make some huge difference either way but I've no problem with the attempt.
    The first step is most important. It sets the tone and framework for SMITE to follow. Of course all talk and no results to show/or actions is also unacceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    3. What about ppl who don't own a phone? Or family members who share a line? This seems m/ore like an exclusive community thing... Personally I don't like linking a phone number to anything.(I don't even have cell service)
    According to Pew Research Center, 95% of Americans owns a cell phone; 88% of teenagers between 13 and 17 own or can by other means use a cell phone (CTIA Wireless) and on average most kids get their first smart phone at 10.3 years old (Influence Central). This is the trend we are heading towards, and in many countries, there are more cell phones than their entire population.

    4. Quality Matches vs Quantity Matches (i.e. more matches) There is a compromise to be made. It is counterproductive just having shorter queue times for the sole purpose of having more matches (Quantity), when there is mass inequality on both teams, the gap in terms of Skill Level is too large between the highest and lower player, players starts to rage at one another, players disconnect in rage, players can't wait to F6, after the match there is alot of them get reported (Falsely or accurately). Having said that players cannot be expected to wait for an extended time to queue for a match. The solution is obvious: you need a steady growing population (more players queuing), but many new players will not be staying if the current MMR systems "creates a toxic environment" (if you match players incorrectly, players are not going to be happy about it) or they constantly get stomped by smurfs. There is some ideas to consider:

    - Implement "Mini Games" while waiting for queue
    - Provide an Estimated Time (as accurate as possible) indicating how long is the expected wait time. Maybe even show how many players are already in the queue. oh we already have 9/10, let me call up someone on my friends list if they are interested?
    - If more players were to Multi queue, it could potentially reduce the queue time. Could make it default Multi queue with option to edit for player preference. There are times, when we don't have a preference for which game mode we play or maybe an option for "Any game mode with the shortest queue time"

    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    5. They could do this, but it doesn't help with actual smurfs at all.... They could just lie.
    This is a future consideration while fixing the MMR system is an immediate consideration. It is in my opinion, a person is more likely to lie if there are no real consequences. On the contrary, if we setup a policy on smurfing, enforce it, let them know there will be consequences if caught and there are ways to detect and catch them, most might think twice before attempting any non-compliance.

    With each solution, new issues will inevitably arose and needs to be tackled accordingly. That doesn't mean the solution will not work, it merely means it requires a multipronged approach to overcome them. The objective was never to completely eliminate smurfing, but to significantly minimize them or as DOTA 2 calls it "noticeably reduce the number of players doing it". Even if we manage to reduce smurfing by 50%, is it not a good start? There is no single magic pill to solve it overnight. It will take time, time to change player behavior and different solutions to be applied when and necessary over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelson Mandela
    It always seems impossible until it's done.
    Last edited by BleuPrince; 12-20-2017 at 03:55 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BleuPrince View Post
    According to Pew Research Center, 95% of Americans owns a cell phone; 88% of teenagers between 13 and 17 own or can by other means use a cell phone (CTIA Wireless) and on average most kids get their first smart phone at 10.3 years old (Influence Central). This is the trend we are heading towards, and in many countries, there are more cell phones than their entire population.
    Well, as I'd said I do not have a cell phone number myself. If it became a requirement to link a cell number to your account I'd be unable to play smite. I also know several people who also don't have personal cell phone numbers. I mean pretty much everyone has a relative who has one at least, buy that doesn't help for registration purposes as multiple members of a household sharing 1 phone could wish to play and would have different skill levels.

    As I'd said, this is a trend in exclusivity. (As in excluding players who don't have cell phones)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LittlePebble02 View Post
    Then give some way to stop this so called promotion of Smurfs.
    Drastically lowering or changing the acquisition method of that recommended friend skin would be a start.

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    We really can not stop smurfs at all. As we have no way of knowing if a high level is making a new account as it could be a completely different person. And we can't really tell if the person is a smurf or not as they could just have one good match out of the hundreds that they have done mediocre in. Only real way to stop them is with Anti-Smurf advertisements from Hi-Rez themselves but I doubt that would change the Smurf population in even the slightest way.
    "A mother bear is very protective over her allies, it will be best not to cross me." -Artio.
    A phrase that crosses over to other gods, even mages, it seems.

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    Senior Member Prestigious GongsunYiru's Avatar
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    That Tyr skin for referrals certainly does not help.

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