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Thread: Atalanta's Bow change

  1. #21
    Member Worshipper SquireAngel's Avatar
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    I feel like Atlanta's bow needs to just let fatalis die and get a new passive. The attack speed is nice, but the power isn't super, and compared to executioners, which is only 5% less as, you never really see it picked up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    I don't think that is really how it works.

    First of all, there is diminishing returns so that 48% is really going to be more like 30-35%.

    Then AA penalty im pretty sure is multiplicative, so 135% drops down to 67.5% not 85%

    Add in boots and you're maybe at 70%, 75%?

    I'm not really sure how it all works, but that's the way I've always read it. Of course stop shooting and you can use that movement to close distance, and throw in a poisoned star to reduce your opponent's movement and you'll be close to their movement at least(maybe faster on Cernnunos if you use his built in slow to stack with poisoned star)
    I don't know exactly what movement it gives you - the AA penalty is multiplicative but so are all the bonuses, and when is the diminishing max speed worked out - after all the multiplicative bonuses/penalties or in the middle like you assume? The most obvious way of working it out would be bonuses-penalties and then for any speed over +35% or whatever it is start to lower ithe bonus. If ranged basic attack is a 50% penalty and this is a 48% buff that makes -2% final move speed.

    Best way is to try it, as opposed to discussing stats.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeathByDribbling View Post
    I don't know exactly what movement it gives you - the AA penalty is multiplicative but so are all the bonuses, and when is the diminishing max speed worked out - after all the multiplicative bonuses/penalties or in the middle like you assume? The most obvious way of working it out would be bonuses-penalties and then for any speed over +35% or whatever it is start to lower ithe bonus. If ranged basic attack is a 50% penalty and this is a 48% buff that makes -2% final move speed.

    Best way is to try it, as opposed to discussing stats.
    Except the bonuses actually aren't multiplicative. If they WERE multiplicative, buying a traveler's boots for 25% movement and then buying say heartseeker for 10% would have an additional 2.5% for a total of 37.5% increase instead of only 35%(and then factor in diminishing returns).

    Increases add a flat number from the character's base movement. The only reason items and buffs state it as a percentage instead of a specific number is because different gods have different base movement speeds.

    The basic attack penalty however slows by 50% of your total speed, not your base speed. This is what makes it multiplicative and not additive, it factors in all the movement from other sources as well.

    I would assume diminishing returns affects the bonuses only. Once your total movement is decided upon, the slows which work multiplicatively take that total and bring it down to where ever it needs to be. Otherwise building a bunch of movement would basically give a form of slow immunity. If i build 175% movement and diminishing returns only allows a max of 150%, and then someone slows me 15% so i drop to 150% i would have no decrease in speed if it worked the way you imply. Instead, it takes the total 150% after diminishing returns and takes a full 15%(multiplicative) of that away bringing it down to 127.5%(slows movement from items as well)

    If slows were additive, like movement buffs, it would have dropped from 150% to 135% instead, which would be a pretty noticeably smaller slow.

    Diminishing returns only allowing 150% movement is just an example, I'm not sure where diminishing returns on movement caps off at. I just know it factors in pretty early making building full movement on even Mercury pretty useless, however I've heard diminishing returns does not affect ability buffs like from thanatos and amaterasu. So on characters with such buffs you can build movement from items up to where diminishing returns starts, and then use buffs to push through diminishing returns and get closer to the movement cap.

    I would assume that slows decrease bonuses from movement buff abilities the same way it does for items, so a movement buff ability wont simply cancel out a slow. They just aren't affected by diminishing returns like items.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    Except the bonuses actually aren't multiplicative. If they WERE multiplicative, buying a traveler's boots for 25% movement and then buying say heartseeker for 10% would have an additional 2.5% for a total of 37.5% increase instead of only 35%(and then factor in diminishing returns).
    They don't multiply each other, they multiply base movement - so 18% is base movement * 1.18. That's a multiplier (hence the * in the calculation). Anyhow discussion is pointless as neither of us really know what the code is doing, and tbh it doesn't really matter as there is a simple solution - just try it out and see if it works for you.

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    I'm just going to use word of thoth equations to settle this.

    Atlantas, wind demon, and ninja tabi for 66% movement on Chiron who has a base movement of 380(fastest hunter)

    That WOULD be 630.8 movement, but because of diminishing returns it is only 568.95 movement. So instead of a 66% bonus we are getting a little under 50% bonus. That is before the basic attack penalty.

    Next the basic attack penalty is MULTIPLICATIVE not ADDITIVE, so instead of simply removing 50% of 380 and bringing us down to 378.95(like how you were suggesting) it removes 50% of 568.95.

    We are left with 284.475 movement which is likely rounded to 284 for gameplay.

    This is still losing over 25% movement based on Chiron's base movement speed. All those buffs are removed, and we lose ANOTHER 25%.

    If the actual buff is added based only on base stats, it is an additive buff. It doesn't matter that multiplication is used to figure out what the flat increments are, it is still an additive buff.

    Regular slows happen before penalties such as basic attacking, but they still happen AFTER speed buffs and are therefore multiplicative. Speed buffs are the only additive values when calculating movement.(except for a few buffs such as Guan Yu's horse apparently)

    So yeah, atlantas+wind demon most definitely does NOT counteract the basic attack penalty. It DOES help you catch up in-between shots though or run away, you just need to stop shooting to remove the penalty.

    You can use the combo on Cernunnos with his winter chill and poisoned star though to reduce your targets movement by 35%, allowing you to stick to them just as easily as having fatalis(though nowhere near as good as frostalis) This is the closest you will get to maintaining a movement advantage over your target while basic attacking with a hunter.

    Of course, your target will likely have their own boots so they may be the same speed as you still. So for instance, Nike with boots would actually still move faster than Cernunnos even after the slows as long as she wasnt using her own basic attacks or moving sideways or backwards. Though she'd be barely faster. If she had a 2nd movement item though or even talaria boots she'd be noticeably faster.

  6. #26
    Member Follower MArBuSe's Avatar
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    ow i have better idea , remove it from game , or at least change the icon ...the person who painted icon for the item was very drunk i think
    Last edited by MArBuSe; 04-02-2018 at 06:16 PM.

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    Member Follower MArBuSe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquireAngel View Post
    I feel like Atlanta's bow needs to just let fatalis die and get a new passive. The attack speed is nice, but the power isn't super, and compared to executioners, which is only 5% less as, you never really see it picked up.
    u build exe cause of passive , no one builds freaking exe for just attack speed , ow and Atalanta's Bow not Atlanta's bow my friend , it's worst item right now , stats seem ok but it's not useful , u will ask why ye , and my answer is Movement penalty ( for basic attacks) it completely removes effect of passive ( i calculate and u will be able to use less than 30 % of movement speed from passive when and if it's fully stacked ) plus stacking it is not beneficial even when u trying to run away or escape , stacking passive will take lot of time and will slow , if it had just 10 % movement speed or even 20% ( why not for late game replacing boots) it could begreat item but it's sucks
    Last edited by MArBuSe; 03-31-2018 at 05:31 PM.

  8. #28
    Member Follower MArBuSe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    I'm just going to use word of thoth equations to settle this.

    Atlantas, wind demon, and ninja tabi for 66% movement on Chiron who has a base movement of 380(fastest hunter)

    That WOULD be 630.8 movement, but because of diminishing returns it is only 568.95 movement. So instead of a 66% bonus we are getting a little under 50% bonus. That is before the basic attack penalty.

    Next the basic attack penalty is MULTIPLICATIVE not ADDITIVE, so instead of simply removing 50% of 380 and bringing us down to 378.95(like how you were suggesting) it removes 50% of 568.95.

    We are left with 284.475 movement which is likely rounded to 284 for gameplay.

    This is still losing over 25% movement based on Chiron's base movement speed. All those buffs are removed, and we lose ANOTHER 25%.

    If the actual buff is added based only on base stats, it is an additive buff. It doesn't matter that multiplication is used to figure out what the flat increments are, it is still an additive buff.

    Regular slows happen before penalties such as basic attacking, but they still happen AFTER speed buffs and are therefore multiplicative. Speed buffs are the only additive values when calculating movement.(except for a few buffs such as Guan Yu's horse apparently)

    So yeah, atlantas+wind demon most definitely does NOT counteract the basic attack penalty. It DOES help you catch up in-between shots though or run away, you just need to stop shooting to remove the penalty.

    You can use the combo on Cernunnos with his winter chill and poisoned star though to reduce your targets movement by 35%, allowing you to stick to them just as easily as having fatalis(though nowhere near as good as frostalis) This is the closest you will get to maintaining a movement advantage over your target while basic attacking with a hunter.

    Of course, your target will likely have their own boots so they may be the same speed as you still. So for instance, Nike with boots would actually still move faster than Cernunnos even after the slows as long as she wasnt using her own basic attacks or moving sideways or backwards. Though she'd be barely faster. If she had a 2nd movement item though or even talaria boots she'd be noticeably faster.
    ehh ... 30% ( around) of items total potential ... time between basics and time before removal of penalty plus the swing time ... wind demon is much more effective simply because it doesn't need to stack up ... u need multiple hits to use passive of At .bow so around 70% will be lost ( it was before buff of effect duration so now has to be less) ... still 4 basics will take from 2.4 seconds to ~ 3 seconds so even if passive lasts for 7 seconds 28% additional movement speed , penalty affects each time u basic attack . problem is the stacking time not duration of it .++ ow ow and plus icon of item sucks man XD
    Last edited by MArBuSe; 04-02-2018 at 06:19 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MArBuSe View Post
    ehh ... 30% ( around) of items total potential ... time between basics and time before removal of penalty plus the swing time ... wind demon is much more effective simply because it doesn't need to stack up ... u need multiple hits to use passive of At .bow so around 70% will be lost ( it was before buff of effect duration so now has to be less) ... still 4 basics will take from 2.4 seconds to ~ 3 seconds so even if passive lasts for 7 seconds 28% additional movement speed , penalty affects each time u basic attack . problem is the stacking time not duration of it .++ ow ow and plus icon of item sucks man XD
    I honestly don't know what you are trying to say or why you are addressing me while you say it. I'm going to assume you didn't mean to quote me, because we aren't talking about the same things here.

  10. #30
    Member Follower MArBuSe's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=MkDemolisher;888600]Let's face it, this item is kind of a joke to those that use to build fatalis on hunters. Fatalis was op don't get me wrong, but this item just doesn't bring enough boxing potential to be worth buying. The item can stack to give you 28% movement speed which is great for survivability, but when you need to movement speed defensively it's hard to maintain stacks. I suggest that the item be given 10% movement speed up front on the item and then something like 4 stacks of 5% movement speed when autos land. I think this item would be a good synergy item for gods like amc and skadi that dont have escapes and would really benefit from the constant 10% movement speed. This would not make the item op because look at freya with all her rings that give movement speed. She is in a really balanced spot right now as a hypercarry mage with her ult being the only actual escape.




    Atalanta's bow needs change's ... well yes ... change the icon , it's stupid looks terrible ... and ofc the stats and passive , total garbage ... if item had flat pen or 10% movement speed and some additional buff on passive it could be better ... i have an idea
    - 30 power
    - 30 attack speed
    - 20 movement speed
    -10 flat pen .
    and fuck the passive and fuck the boots .. we don't need it (for 2200 G)
    so what u think
    or wait
    instead of pen
    it can have a passive that decreases basic attack penalty by 50% ...
    Last edited by MArBuSe; 04-23-2018 at 11:28 AM.

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