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Thread: Guardians are out!

  1. #21
    New Member Cupidhead FollowerofTusky's Avatar
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    Technically defense doesn't give diminishing returns. At 100 protections you take 50% less damage. So it doubles your effective health At 200 it is 66.67% less damage. Thus it takes 3x more damage to kill you than if you had 0 protections. Lastly 300 protections mitigates 75% of the damage coming in this giving you 4x as much effective health. So for every 1point of protection your effective health is increased by 1% of your base health. The only time it would yield diminishing returns if if the enemy has %pen.

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    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FollowerofTusky View Post
    Technically defense doesn't give diminishing returns. At 100 protections you take 50% less damage. So it doubles your effective health At 200 it is 66.67% less damage. Thus it takes 3x more damage to kill you than if you had 0 protections. Lastly 300 protections mitigates 75% of the damage coming in this giving you 4x as much effective health. So for every 1point of protection your effective health is increased by 1% of your base health. The only time it would yield diminishing returns if if the enemy has %pen.
    But the more protections you have, the less mitigation any additional protections will give you. That's diminishing returns.
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    Except when your opponents do decide to build pen, that extra becomes sacrificial lambs to keep your valuable defense intact. Also I get guardians should have some power, but when you say to build high power on something people are gonna think you mean more than 1-2 items(which is all they need to do good damage, typically being power and pen items) if you switch that around and only build 1-2 defense items you can't tank. Dont even try saying you can, you are using the best defense is a good offense method and while it may work out it is not tanking. You are only surviving, cuz 1-2 lets you survive a single burst just like it does for warriors, it is not soaking damage so your team mates feel confident enough to fully engage. Also, sylvanus can totally 100-0 people with spear of the magus. It is just a bunch of dot so it doesn't stand out as much.

  4. #24
    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    Except when your opponents do decide to build pen, that extra becomes sacrificial lambs to keep your valuable defense intact.
    You don't understand. If you already have protections, you won't get as much out of more because the difference will be marginal and, thus, not essential.

    Also I get guardians should have some power, but when you say to build high power on something people are gonna think you mean more than 1-2 items(which is all they need to do good damage, typically being power and pen items) if you switch that around and only build 1-2 defense items you can't tank. Dont even try saying you can, you are using the best defense is a good offense method and while it may work out it is not tanking. You are only surviving, cuz 1-2 lets you survive a single burst just like it does for warriors, it is not soaking damage so your team mates feel confident enough to fully engage.
    That's cool and all, but you're wrong. I main guardians, and I can assure you that it is not at all hard to work in 400+ power while also maintaining a good amount of defense. If your team is too cowardly to follow you in, it's their fault, not yours.

    Also, sylvanus can totally 100-0 people with spear of the magus. It is just a bunch of dot so it doesn't stand out as much.
    The actual numbers say otherwise. 100-0 means actually killing them, and even with WoT, he just doesn't do jack for damage.
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    But I've 1v1 with sylvanus and literally killed someone from full health..... considering its a 1v1 I have a hard time imagining I had any help in the matter. And no, we weren't trading blows first.

    As for defense, I totally understand how it works. Say your opponent has virtually 100 pen(50 base since it caps and 50 in debuff form, scs and void shield) if you only have 100 defense to reduce damage by half, their pen is giving them 50% more damage. If you have 200 defense their pen is only giving them what, 16% more damage? Looks like a pretty large difference to me. Of course building 300 against people with only flat pen is overkill, but that is why % pen exists. It makes 300 actually useful(though still usually unnecessary considering you've got to be able to do damage too if you don't want to just be ignored)

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    Senior Member Prestigious Nalessa's Avatar
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    Kidding me?

    We're back to having 2 or 3 guardians on each side per match because of how stupidly strong they are right now, they're anything but out.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Chosen ZetoPL's Avatar
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    That doesn't mean guardians don't hit hard with power, which I can assure you they do. Effortlessly, in fact. You can still work in defense in a build with 400+ power, as I do pretty much every time I play guardian. And no, not every god can 100-0 effectively. There are guardians who just can't, even with ults. Sylvanus and Khepri come to mind. Warlock's isn't a necessary item for defensive builds.
    Or you go this build and have high survivability with burst damage:
    -Pen Boots
    -Breastplate
    -Void Stone
    -Warlock
    -Soul Reaver
    -Discord

    And Warlock is necessary for bruisers, its like perfect item for them.
    Ethereal before was viable, now is useless, this 5% not even true damage doesnt make your burst better.

    Refraction Shield- 320 + 50% + 1.5s Stun
    Shield Wall- 560 + 100%
    Furious Roar- 220 + 60% + 50% AA Power Reduction + 3% Maximum HP Damage for 4 seconds
    Underhanded Tactics Dragon- 360 + 90% + 2s Stun
    Shackles- 420 + 60% + 4s Slow/Cripple (x3)
    Glacial Strike- 370 + 70% + 4s 35% Slow + Passive
    -Ares - its 60% while you have 420 basic
    -Ymir 50% and 70% isnt good, simply compare to Vulcan 80% and 70% every few sec from safe distance
    -Xing 60% isnt good scaling
    -Fafnir basically doesnt have ult so this 90% isnt anything special
    -Athena 100% is fine but confirming this is almost that same hard as Ymir ult

    Athena and Ymir - both needs fight in close combat and you do not survive this with full power build.
    Of course some they have more scaling overall but you cant apply them like simple throwing away Scylla Crush or Vulcan meatball and run away like nothing.

    Power build is just weak compare to bruiser build with only 300 power and huge HP/DEF/PEN.
    This feeling when your team is far behind and you have no prospects for late game but for some reason players still doesnt want to surrender - MOBA Cancer.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Chosen zitagirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalessa View Post
    Kidding me?

    We're back to having 2 or 3 guardians on each side per match because of how stupidly strong they are right now, they're anything but out.
    ^
    Most of the time when enemy has 2 guardians I know my team is fucked up because they assume they will deal no damage only to see later that Bacchus or Cabrakan are in 10-0.

    Honestly I feel like they are stronger than they were last season and while not annoying, it can be frustrating fighting against them.

  9. #29
    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienmc90 View Post
    But I've 1v1 with sylvanus and literally killed someone from full health..... considering its a 1v1 I have a hard time imagining I had any help in the matter. And no, we weren't trading blows first.
    Which is dependent on your ult, and therefore not really worth getting as much power as other guardians.

    As for defense, I totally understand how it works. Say your opponent has virtually 100 pen(50 base since it caps and 50 in debuff form, scs and void shield) if you only have 100 defense to reduce damage by half, their pen is giving them 50% more damage. If you have 200 defense their pen is only giving them what, 16% more damage? Looks like a pretty large difference to me. Of course building 300 against people with only flat pen is overkill, but that is why % pen exists. It makes 300 actually useful(though still usually unnecessary considering you've got to be able to do damage too if you don't want to just be ignored)
    Actually, this is how it works:

    So starting with 100 protections and being brought down to 50 only gives your opponent an additional 23% damage. So, no, that many protections is just overkill.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZetoPL View Post
    Or you go this build and have high survivability with burst damage:
    -Pen Boots
    -Breastplate
    -Void Stone
    -Warlock
    -Soul Reaver
    -Discord
    Replace SR with Tahuti and Warlock's with Iso and you literally have the exact build I'm running, but its damage is more consistent because I'm not reliant on a passive that's up only every 40 seconds.

    And Warlock is necessary for bruisers, its like perfect item for them.
    Ethereal before was viable, now is useless, this 5% not even true damage doesnt make your burst better.
    Ethereal is indeed shit, but Warlock's is not necessary. If you can stack it, sure; but if the god in question synergizes better with the slow or is playing support and therefore can't stack unless their ADC is going stackless, then Iso is the better option. Also, Iso comes online faster and only offers 20 less power.

    -Ares - its 60% while you have 420 basic
    Shackles can be made to last for up to 8 seconds if you time it right. Going with 6 seconds, which is more reasonable, Shackles does 535 +105% damage. Note that I'm factoring in the initial damage the chains do upon hitting a target; which is a real thing if you wanna test in jungle practice. Without the additional hits, it applies 5 tics of damage.

    -Ymir 50% and 70% isnt good, simply compare to Vulcan 80% and 70% every few sec from safe distance
    His passive brings that up quite a lot.

    -Xing 60% isnt good scaling
    You do realize that he has more than one damaging ability, right? In fact, outside of his ult, he has 190% in total.

    -Fafnir basically doesnt have ult so this 90% isnt anything special
    This is actually the dumbest thing I've read in days. Fafnir's ult is really powerful; it's the thing his whole kit revolves around. Even with out it, Coerce gives his abilities a total of 150% scaling.

    -Athena 100% is fine but confirming this is almost that same hard as Ymir ult
    First, she also has an additional 75% from the rest of her kit. Second, it's not hard with Confound.

    Athena and Ymir - both needs fight in close combat and you do not survive this with full power build.
    Of course some they have more scaling overall but you cant apply them like simple throwing away Scylla Crush or Vulcan meatball and run away like nothing.
    Again, it's not a glass cannon build. Not sure why everyone thinks that's the ONLY way to get 400+ power. The build I run has enough defense to endure enough damage to frontline effectively while also killing shit.

    Power build is just weak compare to bruiser build with only 300 power and huge HP/DEF/PEN.
    It really isn't because the boost to defense is marginal while the boost to damage is pretty significant.
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  10. #30
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    Dude, where did you get 100 being brought down to 50? I said opponent has 100 pen... meaning 100 is brought down to 0. It was an example sure, and yet I've actually run a similar build on hou yi before. Tower shred was awesome. I admit that 300 protections is overkill(as I already said) and that honestly going over 200 is to deal with % pen. But you should always want at least 200 to deal with flat pen. Double % pen brings 300 below 200 by itself, shoot executioner brings 300 to 192 by itself. If you only have 200 and your opponent has titan's bane and flat pen your armor is pretty much gone. So again, extra defense is a sacrifice against pen to keep the valuable defense intact. You want 100 defense after penetration. Depending on your opponents build you might not need much defense but their is a reason base pen caps at 50 and defense caps at 325.

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