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Thread: What makes Artemis "balanced"?

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    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatisty View Post
    Either way my point still stands. Coming up with a god that has no peel but offers a hell of a utility in shutting hunters down has more of a dramatic impact than it seems on paper. Example being SWK — his passive giving power doesn't seem like much, but I got mollywhopped by him twice surprisingly because of the power spike it brings. And as I've said, they won't nerf an entire class when they already did a ton of drastic changes. So suck it up.
    It's one god. A class cannot be balanced if the only way to not be at a tremendous disadvantage to them is to have a specific comp. It doesn't matter what they will and won't do; what matters is what they should do.
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    Lord of the Enigs Infamous Enigmatisty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    It's one god. A class cannot be balanced if the only way to not be at a tremendous disadvantage to them is to have a specific comp. It doesn't matter what they will and won't do; what matters is what they should do.
    A god can still encompass one or more utilities that determine their versatility and viability. Bacchus is now a great antihealer with an easy to apply 50% antiheal on his 3, on top of his knockup. Giving a god say, an AA slow AND a basic damage or power reduction can outright shut a hunter down. Hunters do what they're solely meant to do, it's just that they have a relatively easy time to get there. But that doesn't mean they're unstoppable with proper teamwork and obviously skill.
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    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatisty View Post
    A god can still encompass one or more utilities that determine their versatility and viability. Bacchus is now a great antihealer with an easy to apply 50% antiheal on his 3, on top of his knockup. Giving a god say, an AA slow AND a basic damage or power reduction can outright shut a hunter down. Hunters do what they're solely meant to do, it's just that they have a relatively easy time to get there. But that doesn't mean they're unstoppable with proper teamwork and obviously skill.
    But with hunters in their current state, if you don't want them to be OP against you, you NEED that god on your comp. Otherwise, hunters are OP as normal. Giving something a counter doesn't magically make it balanced. Even if it's an item, you NEED that item or else you get shit on; save for when your own hunter happens to be better than the enemy's. This is not how the game should be. We should be free to organize comps based around specific counters and synergies, NOT be forced into having the same god fulfill a certain role almost all the time because an entire class of gods is too strong otherwise.

    Obviously, hunters can be shut down. Any god can. But right now, it's just not reasonably easy to do so. They hurt at every stage of the game. All HR has to do to fix this is just lower the base damage on their basic attacks and, depending on the god, abilities (including Anhur's passive). But because the community sucks and hunter winrates are low, they aren't getting the nerfs they need.
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    Lord of the Enigs Infamous Enigmatisty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKeksalot View Post
    But with hunters in their current state, if you don't want them to be OP against you, you NEED that god on your comp. Otherwise, hunters are OP as normal. Giving something a counter doesn't magically make it balanced. Even if it's an item, you NEED that item or else you get shit on; save for when your own hunter happens to be better than the enemy's. This is not how the game should be. We should be free to organize comps based around specific counters and synergies, NOT be forced into having the same god fulfill a certain role almost all the time because an entire class of gods is too strong otherwise.

    Obviously, hunters can be shut down. Any god can. But right now, it's just not reasonably easy to do so. They hurt at every stage of the game. All HR has to do to fix this is just lower the base damage on their basic attacks and, depending on the god, abilities (including Anhur's passive). But because the community sucks and hunter winrates are low, they aren't getting the nerfs they need.
    Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize COUNTERBUILDING wasn't a thing in mobas. I assume you just run around with no antiheal against healers with Ascelpius then? Introducing various ways to counter hunters will not restrict build paths or team comps as severely as you think it would. I mean, I agree with the point that you ABSOLUTELY need a certain item to counter hunters is overkill, but it doesn't hurt to have a specialized counter towards at least one archetype of hunter, AA-based or ability-based.

    If you ask me, hunters need the base damage of their abilities reduced (except Rama since his 1 and basics are his everything) and given more scaling so they can clear just as efficiently coming online — but as I've said, I want to see a hard counter towards at least AA-based or ability-based hunters before any real nerfs.
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    The Mad Hatter Prestigious Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatisty View Post
    Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize COUNTERBUILDING wasn't a thing in mobas. I assume you just run around with no antiheal against healers with Ascelpius then?
    I think healers are a good point to bring up on the matter.

    There are numerous counters to healers right now.

    You've got your Brawler's/Divine for ability based anti-heal.

    You've got Pestilence for aura based anti-heal.

    If you don't want to sacrifice your build you've got Curse for relic based anti-heal.

    With so many healers now using HoTs, you can even forgo anti-heal and just focus on pure burst damage and focus fire.

    Requiring a specific item to stop Hunters from being OP isn't that good a design. You'd need multiple ways of countering them for it to feel effective. But you'd probably get to a point where items like this become core items every game, until people just stop playing Hunters altogether, since what's the point if everyone builds to counter you?

    Really... Just balance the Hunter class properly.

    Make the ones that are supposed to hyper carry have poor base damage and no escapes, so they have to WORK to becoming a monster.

    Make some have good early game but scale worse (This means not having every damage type having the same AA scaling. No more Physical = 100% scaling and Magical = 20% scaling. Have some god based variety)

    Make some an in between. Average base damage, average scaling, making them more mid-game orientated.

    Blam. Balanced Hunters. Not only that, but there's some diversification. No more Hunter = ADC. Potentially allowing us to see ADC Assassins or Warriors. Making the game have more variety in laning and god usage.

    No more "Hunter Lane" that's dominated by only the best Hunters because all Hunters do the same role so why pick anyone but the best?
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    Senior Member Prestigious Nalessa's Avatar
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    If she gets more buffs, her ult needs to be gutted damage wise, fucking AA based hunter with a pocket tactical nuke that stuns you, like yeah ok.
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    Senior Member Chosen RonanTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalessa View Post
    If she gets more buffs, her ult needs to be gutted damage wise, fucking AA based hunter with a pocket tactical nuke that stuns you, like yeah ok.
    Stun them, trap a stunned target, feather them with arrows from range while laughing maniacally. Or stun them, fuck the trap, and hit everything like you're playing whack a mole, killing quite a few if you are late game.

    BUT no reliable escape and mana management means shes trash. Go figure
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    Lord of the Enigs Infamous Enigmatisty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    I think healers are a good point to bring up on the matter.

    There are numerous counters to healers right now.

    You've got your Brawler's/Divine for ability based anti-heal.

    You've got Pestilence for aura based anti-heal.

    If you don't want to sacrifice your build you've got Curse for relic based anti-heal.

    With so many healers now using HoTs, you can even forgo anti-heal and just focus on pure burst damage and focus fire.

    Requiring a specific item to stop Hunters from being OP isn't that good a design. You'd need multiple ways of countering them for it to feel effective. But you'd probably get to a point where items like this become core items every game, until people just stop playing Hunters altogether, since what's the point if everyone builds to counter you?

    Really... Just balance the Hunter class properly.

    Make the ones that are supposed to hyper carry have poor base damage and no escapes, so they have to WORK to becoming a monster.

    Make some have good early game but scale worse (This means not having every damage type having the same AA scaling. No more Physical = 100% scaling and Magical = 20% scaling. Have some god based variety)

    Make some an in between. Average base damage, average scaling, making them more mid-game orientated.

    Blam. Balanced Hunters. Not only that, but there's some diversification. No more Hunter = ADC. Potentially allowing us to see ADC Assassins or Warriors. Making the game have more variety in laning and god usage.

    No more "Hunter Lane" that's dominated by only the best Hunters because all Hunters do the same role so why pick anyone but the best?
    I have to admit, you definitely hit the bullseye. Except this is Hi-Rez we're talking about.

    The last time they balanced an entire class was around Season 0-1 with warriors, and there haven't been any changes of that magnitude ever since. They can't just balance an entire class especially in the light of drastic changes that S4 has brought, and it'd certainly have an impact. I'm only considering this which is why I've been pushing the idea of a god/item/buff to Horrific Emblem or another relic to counter at least one of the two hunter archetypes we have, AA-based or ability-based.
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    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatisty View Post
    Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize COUNTERBUILDING wasn't a thing in mobas. I assume you just run around with no antiheal against healers with Ascelpius then? Introducing various ways to counter hunters will not restrict build paths or team comps as severely as you think it would. I mean, I agree with the point that you ABSOLUTELY need a certain item to counter hunters is overkill, but it doesn't hurt to have a specialized counter towards at least one archetype of hunter, AA-based or ability-based.
    It's one thing to have to counterbuild when you meet a specific god and go, "Oh, they have 2 stuns or some shit, I should get Spirit Robe." It's another thing entirely to need to build that item in literally every game because there's an entire class who will almost always be on the enemy team and who will get out of control unless you get that item. It makes builds rather bland, really. We shouldn't have to do that; we should have a counter for when we need it, but the gods for whom we'd get that counter should not DEMAND that counter.

    Healers aren't in every game. When I see them, I can get anti-heals just fine and I won't get my virgin asshole penetrated by Guan Yu's GDCB. Hunters are in pretty much every game I play. I don't want to be forced into the same build again and again when the gods themselves could be nerfed with 0 negative consequence.

    If you ask me, hunters need the base damage of their abilities reduced (except Rama since his 1 and basics are his everything) and given more scaling so they can clear just as efficiently coming online — but as I've said, I want to see a hard counter towards at least AA-based or ability-based hunters before any real nerfs.
    Rama's base numbers also need nerfs. The base damage of their basics should really take a hit because those are a big part of why they're not bad early. They hit hard at every stage of the game; this is where the problem lies.
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    New Member Cupidhead Mytharan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    I think healers are a good point to bring up on the matter.

    There are numerous counters to healers right now.

    You've got your Brawler's/Divine for ability based anti-heal.

    You've got Pestilence for aura based anti-heal.

    If you don't want to sacrifice your build you've got Curse for relic based anti-heal.

    With so many healers now using HoTs, you can even forgo anti-heal and just focus on pure burst damage and focus fire.

    Requiring a specific item to stop Hunters from being OP isn't that good a design. You'd need multiple ways of countering them for it to feel effective. But you'd probably get to a point where items like this become core items every game, until people just stop playing Hunters altogether, since what's the point if everyone builds to counter you?

    Really... Just balance the Hunter class properly.

    Make the ones that are supposed to hyper carry have poor base damage and no escapes, so they have to WORK to becoming a monster.

    Make some have good early game but scale worse (This means not having every damage type having the same AA scaling. No more Physical = 100% scaling and Magical = 20% scaling. Have some god based variety)

    Make some an in between. Average base damage, average scaling, making them more mid-game orientated.

    Blam. Balanced Hunters. Not only that, but there's some diversification. No more Hunter = ADC. Potentially allowing us to see ADC Assassins or Warriors. Making the game have more variety in laning and god usage.

    No more "Hunter Lane" that's dominated by only the best Hunters because all Hunters do the same role so why pick anyone but the best?
    I always thought, that changing the hunters dmg scaling would be the best way to bring hunters (esp their late game) more in line. Just logically (as far as logic can be applied here) why should a damn ass heavy Herc club do the same dmg as a little arrow? Furthermore most attempts to weaken hunters as a class, led to changes in their core items, hurting assassins as well (or even more).

    Sure they have the additional challenge of aiming and hitting their basics (over assas, warriors), but with all their slows + hard cc in the kits (or in general in the game) it is not that difficult. The range advantage more than compensates for that (especially with fatalis).

    So why not change basic attack dmg scaling for ranged physicals to 80%?
    Thats: -BaseDmg/-CritDmg/-Crit+DBDmg (only taking into account dmg from scaling)
    200PP: -40/-80/-96
    300PP: -60/-120/-146

    You can tweak/balance lvl based dmg numbers on individual gods that are hit too much by this change.

    Maybe even increase magical scaling for melee god to 30% just to make it consistent and give a (probably unneeded buff) to guardians. Not sure if that would completely break some dmg-built guardians though (thinking of Cabra, Bacchus, Kumbha here). And for Ao, just use that buff to argue that he should already lose the basicatk item proc on his 3!

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