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Thread: What makes Artemis "balanced"?

  1. #21
    Member Worshipper SuperiorFace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittlePebble02 View Post
    Then why pick any other god if hunters are supposed to be op as a class we have hunters that can perform all the roles and with fatalis with pen tell me why i should not see 5 hunter teams? Bulky frontliner? Ullr and apollo can do that just fine. aoe damage? Neith and skadi are right there so tell me why should hunters be op but whenever a guardian performs well enough hi rez suplexs them into the nerf can.
    Go ahead, run your 5-man hunter teams. Any competent team will destroy them utterly.

    At the moment, hunters are, quite possibly, the weakest class in Conquest. Early game clear and level 1 team fights are more important than late game viability, and hunters just don't have it. People can run 3x Warrior + 2x Mage comps and utterly decimate any hunters. Assassins like Thanatos and Awilix can snowball to the point that you can't establish a front-line for your hunters to hide behind. Games are effectively over before the 10 minute mark if teams can establish jungle control.

    Right now, no, Artemis isn't OP, and the hunter role isn't the strongest role. Only hunters with early clear like Izanami and Apollo are in any way "strong".

  2. #22
    Senior Member Chosen RonanTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorFace View Post
    Go ahead, run your 5-man hunter teams. Any competent team will destroy them utterly.

    At the moment, hunters are, quite possibly, the weakest class in Conquest. Early game clear and level 1 team fights are more important than late game viability, and hunters just don't have it. People can run 3x Warrior + 2x Mage comps and utterly decimate any hunters. Assassins like Thanatos and Awilix can snowball to the point that you can't establish a front-line for your hunters to hide behind. Games are effectively over before the 10 minute mark if teams can establish jungle control.

    Right now, no, Artemis isn't OP, and the hunter role isn't the strongest role. Only hunters with early clear like Izanami and Apollo are in any way "strong".
    Any competent team will destroy most comps consisting of 5 of the same class. If all 5 hunters go full deeps then sure, they'll get destroyed by a balanced comp. In most cases. Howver lets say you have a balanced 1 of each role team with no voice comms or coordination versus a coordinated team of hunters. Regardless of competency levels, they have the ability to fill an area with basic attacks that can decimate any comp. Sure, mages have aoes etc, but they have cooldowns. Sure, assassins have mobility, but they are hampered by range. Few guardians can match mobility with any hunter, which leaves warriors, who tend to be a mixed bag by default but also suffer by design as a result. ADC warriors can be a thing, but they are a rare thing.

    Izanami and Apollo? Really? Not Neith, Ullr, Anhur, AMC, Hou Yi, just Izanami and Apollo have good clear? Please. Most hunters have better clear at level 1 with few exceptions. At level 2 Neith can pretty much wipe a wave if she uses abilities alone, Ullr has probably THE best clear in game, Hou Yi and Anhur have few issues, hell even Cupid can clear with ease. The only 2 hunters that have true issues early imo are Artemis and Xbalanque, yet Xbal has the most undervalued ult in game and Artemis will kill you late game if you get gored by tusky or caught in a trap.

    That you say they are the weakest class is totally and utterly subjective. Weakest by what barometer? Utility? Debatable and subject to selection. Damage? Hell no. Squishyness? Yeah, maybe, thats what happens with glass cannon builds, but on base stat comparison it would be mages. What their kits can offer? Hah. No. Most have cc, escape or immunity frames, quite a few have area wide ults, all have teamfight presence by virtue of design.

    To say they are weak because assassins can snowball is frankly intellectually illogical, as that applies to any god that snowballs, in particular hunters. Xbalanque is pretty much designed with this principle in mind, and he excels at it if he gets ahead, just like Thanatos. Fact is what makes any hunter appear weak is that they are piss easy to play, thus attracting players with a certain mindset. As in those that want to be MVP but don't really want to work at it. Of course there are exceptions, but there is a reason you tend to see 2 hunters being locked in snd rarely 2 warriors or guardians.

    Thus you get mediocre players typically playing a strong class poorly that in turn leads to overbuffing of an already powerful role. Which in turn creates a potential view of weakness instead of poor players, as it is a lot more human to blame a gods perceived weakness than your own mechanical skill.
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  3. #23
    The Mad Hatter Prestigious Relanah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatisty View Post
    What if I told you that hunters are supposed to become OP? At least late-game, but they're meant to become the sole teammate that will ensure your way to victory in the late game.
    Then make them crap early game. Make them mediocre mid-game.

    Make it so a team has to invest into their Hunter so that they can grow into their hyper carry status.

    Not make them entirely self sufficient with wave clear for days, enough escapes to make them ridiculous to gank without CC chains out the wazoo and enough early game damage to actually best people in 1v1's.

    Like, the notion of the Duo Lane is that the Hunter that usually occupies it is weak early, so they need to have a support stuck with them to assist them against ganks, wave control, taking the occasional jungle camp etc.

    However, right now all Hunters (Including the 3 Magical Hunters) are so self sufficient that they're usually just left alone to solo. To the point where the Hunters considered "Weak" are ones like Artemis who don't quite have the same level of wave clear and 3000 escape tools.

    That's the problem. When your hyper carry comes online well enough to solo that early, that's when they become broken. Not to say much about their unique ability to go literal glass cannon and still be fine (Meanwhile in many other games, ADC's still have to build into defences because they don't have escapes if things go tits up and they get dived on)
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    Senior Member Chosen Spartan219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vashwix View Post
    As always, is full of people complains about hunters opness... and then you watch SPL matches and on 10 players you can find max one hunter, usually Jing (just nerfed), cause mages do a better work even in duo lane. Maybe now in S4 things will change, but hell, can you stop complaining about a role who is the last taken on pro league?

    On topic: i always loved artemis, but she's not even close to be better than other hunters. Her main spot is (sadly) in arena or motd.
    i thought only hirez takes decision based on SPL didnt knew people also thinks like that if a god is picked more in SPL that god must be OP if not that god must be bad this is just sad

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    Senior Member Chosen Spartan219's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relanah View Post
    Then make them crap early game. Make them mediocre mid-game.

    Make it so a team has to invest into their Hunter so that they can grow into their hyper carry status.

    Not make them entirely self sufficient with wave clear for days, enough escapes to make them ridiculous to gank without CC chains out the wazoo and enough early game damage to actually best people in 1v1's.

    Like, the notion of the Duo Lane is that the Hunter that usually occupies it is weak early, so they need to have a support stuck with them to assist them against ganks, wave control, taking the occasional jungle camp etc.

    However, right now all Hunters (Including the 3 Magical Hunters) are so self sufficient that they're usually just left alone to solo. To the point where the Hunters considered "Weak" are ones like Artemis who don't quite have the same level of wave clear and 3000 escape tools.

    That's the problem. When your hyper carry comes online well enough to solo that early, that's when they become broken. Not to say much about their unique ability to go literal glass cannon and still be fine (Meanwhile in many other games, ADC's still have to build into defences because they don't have escapes if things go tits up and they get dived on)
    this many hunters have a good wave clear and can also do Good dmg early looking at you neith idk about ullr never played him and gods like izanami apollo can clear a wave hou yi and anhur can too with a bit of difficulty in starting aretemis got no wave clear no escape ability she will either have to use her ult or hope that some gets stuck in her 1 and she also has a bad early Game so i think artemis is fine but not other gods them crits sometimes you can get hit 5 hits in a row all you gotta do is press M1 to win but some got ability dmg too so you gotta hope that your enemy hunter is bad at aiming

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan219 View Post
    i thought only hirez takes decision based on SPL didnt knew people also thinks like that if a god is picked more in SPL that god must be OP if not that god must be bad this is just sad
    Except Jing and the magical adcs (maybe not Sol) were overpowered. The magical adcs completely destroyed the entire Hunter class being the only ones played in the duo lane 3+ times in the SWC to have a positive win ratio.
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    Senior Member Chosen ZetoPL's Avatar
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    Her steroid and ult are 2 the best things from all Hunters which compensate her 0 escape abilities.
    Of course she is much harder to play than most of Hunters cause ppl cant positioning correctly which make Artemis feeder at this point.
    This feeling when your team is far behind and you have no prospects for late game but for some reason players still doesnt want to surrender - MOBA Cancer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatisty View Post
    What if I told you that hunters are supposed to become OP? At least late-game, but they're meant to become the sole teammate that will ensure your way to victory in the late game. As we've seen with the buffs to Anhur's, Neith's, Ullr's, Hou Yi's, and more recently Apollo's waveclear, the standard for what makes a hunter at least balanced is rising. Now they need to have good waveclear on par with mages. Artemis deserves the same treatment, even if you think hunters need to be nerfed first. Balanced first, then nerfs.
    That would be fine, except they're not bad early. You can't have a late-game like that with so much going for you if your early-game doesn't suck monkey fuck to suffice. It's the same problem that plagues some mages--they're too strong early to justify their stupid late-game.
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    Lord of the Enigs Infamous Enigmatisty's Avatar
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    Hunters used to be bad early, but eventually they're being buffed to be strong if not OP early on. Once upon a time, Neith's 1 had its damage reduced after hitting one person, but that was eventually removed and had its damage buffed afterwards.

    Honestly, at this rate HR needs to implement stronger counters to hunters. Let Horrific Emblem reduce AS by 40-50% if you upgrade it, introduce a guardian that utilizes BOTH basic damage reduction and AS slows but consequently has poor lockdown/setup, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZetoPL View Post
    Her steroid and ult are 2 the best things from all Hunters which compensate her 0 escape abilities.
    Of course she is much harder to play than most of Hunters cause ppl cant positioning correctly which make Artemis feeder at this point.
    Her ult is a great disruption tool because it makes teams scatter like crazy, but that's not like other hunter ults are bad. Hou Yi's ult is a great zoning and peel tool, Jing's is nice damage, Apollo's is mobility, etc.
    Last edited by Enigmatisty; 02-08-2017 at 02:05 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatisty View Post
    Hunters used to be bad early, but eventually they're being buffed to be strong if not OP early on. Once upon a time, Neith's 1 had its damage reduced after hitting one person, but that was eventually removed and had its damage buffed afterwards.

    Honestly, at this rate HR needs to implement stronger counters to hunters. Let Horrific Emblem reduce AS by 40-50% if you upgrade it, introduce a guardian that utilizes BOTH basic damage reduction and AS slows but consequently has poor lockdown/setup, etc.
    Or

    Or

    OR

    THEY COULD JUST MAKE THEIR EARLY-GAMES WORSE. Take away their not-actually-bad ability damage, and lower their base AA damage, and they will be poor early in exchange for being among the strongest late-game gods around.
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