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Thread: Loki - Changes I believe he needs to be (Effective in Team Fights and Game Changer)

  1. #41
    Ocean Princess Prestigious Lyralis's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^

    So much this @ last post.

    Did you know he originally wanted Loki to deal TRUE DAMAGE?


    KeK.
    What do I put here now?

  2. #42
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    Hey, Finally a worthy reply from MissPuddingPop.

    Thanks alot for your time but i'm sorry to say there is a couple things you forgot to mention and take into consider and that most of your text is true, yet not true. This statement is completely False "Usually, if you're the one who's getting angry at people that you devolve to the same arguments, and don't want to try to work things out constructively, you're the issue." The people simply argue about the same thing a previous person argued about, that i have to give the same answer in many different ways, over and over it gets tiring. I give them all the answers or reasons to them on a silver plate, yet they still ignore it like it doesn't exist and also Please Stop Commenting on the Damage since the Damage already exists on the Current Loki, only Loki's Kit is improved.

    1st)
    If you take away that noise in say conquest: He goes invisible, NOBODY knows he's there until he's already behind you and has struck you for half your health. This is true, yet not true, you have the item called chalice of the oracle to help you navigate as well as sounds in the jungle from him leaving stealth from Vanish, if his close to you and other items, and as you said He can't be countered except by dedicating your whole game to doing so, (in terms of paying more attention), or you can't see/hear him coming without constantly buying extra wards, well this is the price to pay, if you want to counter him or stay alive, if you ignore the signs like you going into deep of enemy territory or not placing wards or ignoring the sounds from the jungle. That is your own fault. Don't blame it onto Loki's No audio Vanish.

    2nd)
    He does more damage than most gods ever have health, and he does it far quicker than any other god in the game. Sorry to say his not the only one with this capability, and that this already exists even without my changes since I didn't give it a damage buff, only a kit buff.

    3rd)
    You can't watch a whole team at one time, people get confused, disorganized, separated. Well this is where your right and wrong, not if the Team communicates and is patient and rely on each other, which a team should be.

    4th)
    This 360+200% power damage is still mitigated, even with having 3 penetration items. Also the damage isn't more or less it never changed, the current Loki will do the same damage as my build Loki, only time the damage is different is from behind which all in all is about the the same, 20% increase damage will do more damage even after mitigate compare to my passive on squishies. The only time my passive will be effective is against Tanks with 200+ physical defense which they should have. Also tanks with The hide of the Nemean Lion will hurt you alot more.

    5th)
    So, late game, every hunter and mage, that's between 25-40% of their health in one strike this already possible with the current Loki, also current Loki can already instant kill with a specific build.

    6th)
    PLUS a 33% penetration. If we ignore the penetration, and just focus on power (Bad idea, since its not to say you will get behind them every time and this will cripple your damage greatly due to mitigation against a tank, unreliable. Also only from behind with your 1st basic attack at the start of each of the basic attack progression and vanish and aimed strike (Ult is NOT included in here), which is not easy to do in the time frame given unless you use Ult.

    7th)
    BUT, now we have another 380 bleed due to the stun from the ult, since when does this also give extra bleed damage? The Ult will only do bleed damage from stealth formation, which means if you were to Ult from stealth position the bleed will simply apply faster instead of having to wait for the back stab from basic attack to apply it, but by doing this you will lose all your escapes and the silence (Ult stun overrides the silence) to make most of the damage before Aegis is used or kill the enemy faster.
    And this you also said "So, the grand total, on one ult and one invisible, silencing, bonus speed, and now completely undetectable (Yes and NO, explained at the 1st comment), 1870 damage (if your saying both Ult and Vanish together does this damage alone, then your completely wrong, that damage equals to Ult, Vanish and Aimed strike).

    8th)
    In other words, 60% of all the gods in the game have just died, because mages, hunters and assassins don't often need to build defense, and you just did more damage than most of them have health, in under 3 seconds LOL, this already possible with Current Loki!

    9th)
    And because of the silence, none of them have an escape either until after you've already hit them with the stun/ult, doesn't really make sense, if your saying Loki first silences with Vanish, then use Ult, then use Aimed Strike, well that is 1 way to kill an enemy, but not wise in a team fight, since you will be sacrificing yourself most likely.

    10th)
    Okay, fine: Let's go with a guardian then: 3000 health, 200 defense. Well, now that defense is effectively 133 because you admit to building Titan's bane on Loki to start, then 66 for the aimed strike and bleed damage. So, best case scenario, that Guardian is still taking around 1200-1500 damage. Half health, two buffs, an ult and a single basic attack. Okay, he's alive, but he's hurt. What's the first thing he tries to do? Retaliate. Ymir: He turns and tries to freeze Loki, Loki drops decoy and under your change, it's absorbed. Loki is still inches away from Ymir, and Ymir now wants to flee. He turns and runs, OPENING himself up to Loki to keep punishing him, and Ymir is effectively dead. Sylvanus, dead, can't root. Cabrakan, slightly better because he has passive defense, but can't stun. Ares, sitting duck, chains don't help after all of Loki's things are on cooldown and he's racing in to punch in his damage plus 33% pen. So, effectively, every guardian without a dash or leap isn't getting away, and even those who have it are at risk. You assuming to much like all Loki players has superhuman reflexes with decoy and Ares is not a sitting duck, his the BEST god possible to kill or make Loki useless, since Ares only needs to get his 1 on Loki and his done for, since Loki can't escape (Vanish useless since stealth will be removed instantly) unless he Ults away or fights and Ares won't let Loki to attack him from behind. Also if Loki didn't have my decoy or the passive, Loki will always lose to a Tank without having a chance to retaliate, which is the current case. This has been tested and confirmed.

    11th)
    AND THEN even if you knock him out of stealth, you've still given him 2 seconds to use his ultimate ability and get the bleed damage anyway. Its 1 second not 2 seconds even though it says 2s, i checked, the coding messed up there. Test press Vanish and the timer will be at 5s yet at the 4th
    second he gets revealed then only has 1 second to apply the bleed. Also Loki has to waste Ult, if to get close as well as this will be very predictable. This gives other players enough time to see it coming and to prepare.


    12th)
    So, yeah, forgot about the decoy in those earlier calculations. Poseidon cripple? No. Nox silence/root? No. Nu Wa Stun, Zhong Kui stun, Chronos. Nieth roots, Skadi ice, Anubis Stun, Artemis root/boar, whatever. Here again you assume that Loki players has insane reaction action time which I doubt. And you can't use abilities in silence or stuns, no one can react fast enough to place decoy to evade. And all those gods can counter Loki easy and kill Loki fast, yet at the same time he can do the same if they are careless.

  3. #43
    Member Worshipper PîxelFox's Avatar
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    okay, so much to read, and istn my language, so i'm not going to read that in a thread created to change a god that is ok right now.
    before the new season loki was harder to counter, you could only do it with other gods as aracne, hou yi, and other lucky characters that counter loki. but now he can be a really big pain in the ass, or can be as usefull as any other god if is not extremely focused in the match.

    the reasons to no buff loki is that he has incredible damage even without building physical damage, only pen (well also a little bit of damage, but not much) that does that even gods with huge protection can recive a big amount of damage by loki. in the part of damage he is great.

    survivance: he has 2 escapes, 1 teleport (ulti) and 1 ivisibility that has the old winged boots relic (immunity to slow and also has speed buff) he is invisible, can troll everybody by going in the other direction. also has shield, etc... icredible escapes so it counters his low health.

    nice vanish, nice push, nice survivance and damage too. what more do you want?
    "oh it can be countered and is useless when it happens" and how many times the whole enemy team knows how to counter loki? it doesnt happen a lot, and even when it happens loki can still being usefull.

    i dont even know why can anyone say that loki is not enough like how is actually, when he can let you with half of health only by hitting one basic (with the bleeding and so).
    he needed maybe a nerf before the new season, but now that we have new items to couter him, now i feel that is ok
    Last edited by PîxelFox; 02-05-2017 at 11:27 AM.

  4. #44
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    I agree his damage is great that why i didn't touch it, but his Kit atm makes him to obvious and lacks the mystery effect. That is why not many ppl dont choose him at later stages in rank matches, since he has alot of damage but his kit only brings out about 60% of its potential. As i said before in MOBAs Rank Game Modes, its all about how useful he can be for the team and efficient as well as being effective. At the moment he has only 1/3 that I stated, his useful for the team (in the sense of damage and killing loners) but in an inefficient and ineffective way which drags down the whole team at Late Game, since once you get to mid game the enemy team hugs all together or in a 2 3 formation.

    I still don't know where you get the idea that he has shield cause he doesn't.

    And "oh it can be countered and is useless when it happens" and how many times the whole enemy team knows how to counter loki? it doesnt happen a lot, and even when it happens loki can still being useful. This is true that not many ppl know how to counter loki, but they can always learn, if they don't want to learn that is their own choice. So they bring the team down for not taking the time to learn or pay attention.

    You do know that Loki is C Tier, compared to other gods that are B+/A-/A+ Tier.

    before the new season loki was harder to counter, you could only do it with other gods as aracne, hou yi, and other lucky characters that counter loki. but now he can be a really big pain in the ass, or can be as usefull as any other god if is not extremely focused in the match. Those lucky gods are All Warriors, Guardians and some Mages and some hunters, but now (my build) he can be a really big pain in the ass, or can be as useful as any other god if is not extremely focused in the match, which is their own fault for not focusing.

  5. #45
    Member Worshipper PîxelFox's Avatar
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    okay the fact is who gives here the tier, because this can be a bit subjetive, another thing is that what i call "shield" im refering about the 25 % of damage he ingores
    following the wiki:
    removes and gains immunity to Slow effects, and takes 25% less damage
    and also he can be very predictable about his gameplay, because the only role in teamfight for loki, is being the call of duty camper but in smite, waiting to an squishy god leaves the mass of the teamfight and kill him. but practically all gods (if not all) have always the same strategy. for example janus always portal in the ground and balls. scylla throw the dogs and circle abbility, hou yi, the mark, and stun, few basics, etc.

    if you feel that loki is useless for high ranked is because there people play serious and know how to counter loki well. but thet know how to counter other gods too.

    also if loki is countered by warriors, is because are the only role with huge cc abbilities, and also huge life, loki gameplay is always: under 2000HP >>> i dissapera, then i apear in your back, i fuck your life, and i leave>>> repeat untill the tanks is the only alive

    loki is an extreme easy god for begginers, and still doing his job for veterans. if in high ranked is most of the time useless is because is the price he has to pay for being a big nightmare in low ranked and casuals
    Last edited by PîxelFox; 02-05-2017 at 02:03 PM.

  6. #46
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    I like what you did with the last paragraph but that is his issue, his inconsistent that is why he needs a kit buff (my build), he needs to be a big nightmare in high ranked games, not just for low ranked and casuals, since those don't care. Any and every god should be balanced to the point that they are a big nightmare in high or low ranked or casuals games.

    This is what every god should potentially be, this way it doesn't matter which god you choose in any game mode casual or Ranked Joust, Conquest, Duel, the outcome of it going either way should be 50-50. My build has a lot of mystery and (damage it already has), yet it can be easily countered, fairly, no matter what god you choose, since if your a master to your favorite god (in terms of knowing exactly your strengths and weaknesses), you still have a fair chance where it can go both ways. The god combos (in terms like Conquest is Hunter/Guardian top lane, Warrior solo lane, Mage mid lane, Assassin Jungle) shouldn't be just 1 way it should have many and any way since it should about which team and as individuals is better.

    I'm a Joust player and the map is so small the Audio(Vanish) is heard a mile away, My build will fix that and since the map is small wards will cover a lot of area especially now where you have an item called Chalice of the Oracle, so all in all, I still believe my build is fair and easily countered, since my Loki needs to be less careless and more precise. AOE can knock him out cold real easily.

  7. #47
    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead NearTheNinja's Avatar
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    Hmm, i agree he needed a kit rework, or at least there needs to be a change overall to counter stealth or at least make it less annoying but a rework does not entail a buff or nerf except in the cases where a mechanic is kept but changed to fit along with the rest of the new kit. But this in itself is hard to see as a nerf or rework without actual live play. I read a majority of your post (and i feel you may a little guarded about the feedback since you are posting on the forums but i digress) Your changes as they have been mentoined are more of a buff with a rework of current skills instead of a kit rework to balance the good and bad of loki. At least you should consider how playing as loki and playing against loki should feel and what role he is to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hergamesh View Post
    Game Changer, since what he can do with his 2 in team fights and that he can play pretty much in any position.Jungle position, if all changes are made including Passive)[/COLOR] If someone needs to go back to base he can fill in or if 1 lane is over fed he can gank that lane while still having a fair chance to counter play them without making the situation worse Fed = 2 or more levels higher than your whole team and have a lot more damage or defence items. He can play like an ADC already just on a more balanced plain field this time. And so on.

    While he can still retain his split push, and pick off loners’ styles, also these changes give him a lot more combo variety, even if the enemy teams has Loki counter gods like Geb, Nox, Ymir, Bacchus, Hou Yi, Arachne, Artemis or other gods I didn’t mention, he can adjust his playstyle to suit his needs in some way instead of it being one sided in team fights of (5v5,3v3) or 1v1.
    You basically are asking to have an end all be all god who can do anything..... and among other ideas, a team should not have to buy and sacrifce one item consumable or etc just to slightly counter one mechanic of 1-2 Gods. This is why Phantom was changed to the current form i believe. Although he is in ....a spot right now, considered to be decent in the eyes of Hi-res i suppose honestly i believe they don't actually know what to do with him to make him satifying to still play but also to play against. I'm not saying you are comletely wrong or anything, i'm just saying think about it, nearly every god, every skill, and etc has some form of counter. Of course exception which lead to this vary discussion include the stealth mechanic which as of now doesn't really have a counter. I really want the Developers to do something about loki as its fine(not really) when i may only see him one every 4-7 matches but is quite annoying to see even one match more. He's fun to play, but terrible to really play against and since it seems Hi-res really only balances around Conquest and no other mode this has become a pretty server problem for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NearTheNinja View Post
    Hmm, i agree he needed a kit rework, or at least there needs to be a change overall to counter stealth or at least make it less annoying but a rework does not entail a buff or nerf except in the cases where a mechanic is kept but changed to fit along with the rest of the new kit. But this in itself is hard to see as a nerf or rework without actual live play. I read a majority of your post (and i feel you may a little guarded about the feedback since you are posting on the forums but i digress) Your changes as they have been mentoined are more of a buff with a rework of current skills instead of a kit rework to balance the good and bad of loki. At least you should consider how playing as loki and playing against loki should feel and what role he is to play.



    You basically are asking to have an end all be all god who can do anything..... and among other ideas, a team should not have to buy and sacrifce one item consumable or etc just to slightly counter one mechanic of 1-2 Gods. This is why Phantom was changed to the current form i believe. Although he is in ....a spot right now, considered to be decent in the eyes of Hi-res i suppose honestly i believe they don't actually know what to do with him to make him satifying to still play but also to play against. I'm not saying you are comletely wrong or anything, i'm just saying think about it, nearly every god, every skill, and etc has some form of counter. Of course exception which lead to this vary discussion include the stealth mechanic which as of now doesn't really have a counter. I really want the Developers to do something about loki as its fine(not really) when i may only see him one every 4-7 matches but is quite annoying to see even one match more. He's fun to play, but terrible to really play against and since it seems Hi-res really only balances around Conquest and no other mode this has become a pretty server problem for a while.
    Wow, Thanks a lot this is useful feedback. To your statement "You basically are asking to have an end all be all god who can do anything..... and among other ideas, a team should not have to buy and sacrifce one item consumable or etc just to slightly counter one mechanic of 1-2 Gods."
    Yes, i am kinda asking him to be an end all to all go who can do anything, reason this makes him unique to be able to be adjustable in any situation simply to confuse the enemies what his aim his, and increase the threat towards him making the enemy team to make more mistakes ( Can't find the right word but i mean to say is that they waste their relics or escapes or abilities faster, so they are on cooldown when you engage in this case the silence from Vanish is a (maybe or not [can be removed from the kit]). well the only team member(s) that will have to sacrifice a consumable is the Jungler and Adc and Mage (mid), since Chalice of the Oracle is only 400 gold but it re-fills when returning to base, so in the long run you will have wards up 100% of the time and save money. And don't forget if you want to, you can also buy the 1 item that is 750 gold that reveals all enemy gods for 5s, if your scared of him.

  9. #49
    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead NearTheNinja's Avatar
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    Hmm, I do not believe Hi-res will make such changes for any god in general let alone loki simply because there would be no diversity, he would be someone everyteam would have to pick to at least counter pick any enemy loki.

    Let me use this as an example [IMG][/IMG]

    when you only get 12 points per god how do you distrbute them and still make them unique to play?
    and thne you tune that around the items, play style, and etc of the current time.

  10. #50
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    Well awesome chart, And as you said "he would be someone everyteam would have to pick to at least counter pick any enemy loki.", if you want to do it that way, the counter pick for Loki isnt just Arachne and Hou Yi and some other Gods anymore, its now ALL Gods can COUNTER him and as you said including himself can counter him. The Gods to counter him isn't limited anymore, and in Ranked Matches you can always BAN him, so no one can pick him.

    If my build were to be accepted by Hi-Res, I can 100% predict that yes his going to be in every team at the start most of the time and be hard to counter at first, but after 1-2 month people will get used to it (will become the new Normal) and players will perform better and learn new ways to deal with it or use my techniques to counter Loki efficiently and effectively. Since I won't give a God, God mode with no way to counter it, FAIRLY, since i'm not so stupid cause then what would be the point of me posting this from the start.

    My point order would be 2 1 3 1 4 1 1 3 1 3 3 3 (for efficient damage) or 2 1 3 2 4 2 2 1 1 1 1 3 (wave clear + poke).

    To make him unique to play, is how you use him to its full potential and how you Lurk into the shadows looking for its prey of opportunity whether its 1(Loki) vs 1/2/3/4/5 (no other assassin can do this except for Kali) he still has chance to get a kill and escape if planned correctly or fail miserably, but all in all give him usefulness in late game team fights, since he can set up traps to screw with the enemy team effectively to allow your(Loki's) team to have a better chance to win a team fight, of 4 v 5 (or other way around) or 5 v 5.

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