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Thread: Stacking Items, discuss balance and their effect on teamplay

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    Member Follower LexiConArtist's Avatar
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    Stacking Items, discuss balance and their effect on teamplay

    So I was wondering about stacking items. There's the Transcendence that Neith maxes a few waves in and ruins your day with, the Book of Thoth staple to most mages looking for casting sustainability and power in one tidy package... A lot of very commonly picked up gear.

    What do people actually consider for their state of balance compared to alternatives? Is the 'price' of stacking them really weighed heavily enough against the outcome?

    Another question is the effect on teamplay. Because they are so ubiquitous, sometimes you have those games where almost everybody has something they want to stack. Obviously, not everybody can stack from the whole wave at once. But, outside of a completely manually-formed team, there's always a risk that you get those bad players who ignore all the VSS you can muster, and clear the wave anyway even when they aren't building stacks. Worse still is when you're both blowing abilities to try to snag the minions first, and you have less to throw against your enemies.

    If stackable items are so necessary and are yet still balanced, then perhaps there should be a consolation mechanic to ease up disputes on minions. Say every five minions killed around you also grants a stack? Something between the feast of everyone stacking quickly, and the famine of never getting what you need.

    God assists should definitely grant a couple of stacks; nobody likes people who moan about 'kill stealing', but with no stacks on assists they have a non-zero validity to the complaint. Plus, with that change and the trickle-down minion stacking you could have more viable supports who don't need to steal farm to get a Book or Warlock going, albeit significantly slower than if they were taking the last hits themselves.

    Thoughts?

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    Senior Member Chosen Ichimarou's Avatar
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    Game is balanced around conquest.

    1 Mid who stacks
    2 Duo where the carry stacks
    1 solo who could stack
    1 jungle who could stack

    Where do you hinder your team while stacking ?

    If this thread is based around any other mode then conquest.....youre out of luck.
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    Member Follower LexiConArtist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichimarou View Post
    Game is balanced around conquest.
    Where do you hinder your team while stacking ?
    If this thread is based around any other mode then conquest.....youre out of luck.
    The balance question was separate from the teamplay question for a reason. Recent experiences with being almost completely unable to stack because of awful teammates in conquest notwithstanding... If it is so guaranteed that you can freely and easily stack them, the question becomes whether they are balanced in power to an almost insignificantly impacting 'investment'.

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    Senior Member Chosen Ichimarou's Avatar
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    Well stack items are pretty balanced. They cost a little bit and you have to stack them but you will feel the reward afterwards. Then there is the fact that you have to build your stack items ASAP. So yes stack items have downsides.

    And that your team hinders you on stacking seems odd.In my experience i can finish W.Sash around the 10 minutes mark when i am mid lane.
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    Banned Prestigious Endag's Avatar
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    Book and trans are effective at 0 stacks, no idea why you bring them up over devos and warlock's.

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    Senior Member Honoured LinkNightblade's Avatar
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    Considering the benefits you get from stacking items (any of them for that matter), its usually essential for the mage and the hunter to stack, not only for power in both cases, but usually for the health for the mage if they choose to build Warlocks Sash (which tbh is becoming essential at this point for almost any mage to stay alive). Taking into account that most everyone will choose to stack somehow (some gods excluded), and considering that stacks are super important early on, there needs to be some way to share a wave and still get something from it. I wouldn't mind seeing a certain number of minion assists counting towards x amount of stacks or a god kill assist counting to x amount of stacks as well. Considering Transcendence is the easiest stacking item to build on physical gods with a low-ish cost and really good effect (and maybe Doom Orb since its high risk high reward), I could see this type of stacking system not applying to that item(s), however, items like Devourer's Gauntlets, Warlocks Sash and Book of Thoth with their high stacking count, this system would help get those items online faster, encourage sharing wave/exp and overall be better for working together as a team, instead of selfishly like it currently is.

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    Member Follower LexiConArtist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endag View Post
    Book and trans are effective at 0 stacks, no idea why you bring them up over devos and warlock's.
    That was just an off-the-cuff comment, but any stack items are up for discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by LinkNightblade View Post
    Considering the benefits you get from stacking items (any of them for that matter), its usually essential for the mage and the hunter to stack, not only for power in both cases, but usually for the health for the mage if they choose to build Warlocks Sash (which tbh is becoming essential at this point for almost any mage to stay alive).
    Two things to segue from this part of the comment:
    1) Where's the physical defensive-hybrid stacking item? No, Devourer's doesn't count, magical lifesteal exists and isn't what Warlock's provides.
    2) Warlock's is the absolute highest health in an item slot. 600hp fully stacked is massive. Could mages benefit more from a little more natural health and a little less reliance on this absolute best-in-slot health buy? When does it become too necessary?

    Considering Transcendence is the easiest stacking item to build on physical gods with a low-ish cost and really good effect (and maybe Doom Orb since its high risk high reward), I could see this type of stacking system not applying to that item(s), however, items like Devourer's Gauntlets, Warlocks Sash and Book of Thoth with their high stacking count, this system would help get those items online faster, encourage sharing wave/exp and overall be better for working together as a team, instead of selfishly like it currently is.
    You could even add a gate of minion assisting only actually counting if the killer is an allied god (No free rides for bad last-hitters) and possibly even only counting if the killer did not gain a stack on any item themselves (No free rides to overscale the stacking rate overall), to pull down the benefits for balance purposes while still remaining relevant.

    Given that Warlock's is the best health item (and has good power), I'm sure Guardians would love to have a real access to that beefy health stat, even in a world where Qin's exists. Capped protections only go so far.

    Mage-supports would probably love it too. They can have a tough enough time working around their natural squishiness early on, without needing to find their own farm for that near-mandatory Warlock's Sash, or the power and mana battery they'd get from Thoth. Or both. Doublestacking support go.

    I agree that Doom Orb would probably stay selfish, but if 50 stacks is considered easy to get for Transcendence, do you think the half-loss-on-death mechanic for Doom Orb is actually effective as a risk/reward limitation as it stands already? Still a lot of power half-stacked, and it's not hard for a mage to clear a wave or two, to charge that back up to full. I still don't see it picked up very often, but whether that's genuinely because of risk or just a stigma from the concept of losing strength is another matter.

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