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Thread: Suggestions on how to make crits not random

  1. #21
    Member Worshipper MustaTimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zecleria View Post
    how about making crit work like this:
    one crit item:every fifth hit will be a crit
    two crit item:every fourth and fifth hit will be a crit
    three crit item:every third fourth and fifth will be a crit.

    caps at 3 and rage counts as two crit items.
    Quote Originally Posted by MustaTimo View Post
    My suggestion:
    You don't have crit chance by default. For eg.: with your first crit item you get "crit chain" (let's say 5), and then your every fifth aa will crit. You buy another one, and the "crit chain" is shortened by 1 and you will crit on every fourth aa. And so on.
    If you miss, the chain resets.
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    Senior Member Prestigious zecleria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MustaTimo View Post
    Way ahead of you
    ooooh nice
    You may think all gods have huge amounts of courage, but only xbalanque has the balls to use them as weapons.

    0.3 instead of 30% again.
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    Senior Member Prestigious LuxInterior's Avatar
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    @Zecleria and @MustaTimo: that's a nice idea. As some people pointed out, crits from the start without items could be problematic or change things too much. We also have a problem on how to add crits to warriors and assassins who don't have a X2 in their chain. But we'd have to find another passive for the new Malice.

    However, and now answering the big post by Diamond, remember that, in my suggestion, your crit "chance" caps at 33% (or 25% if we go by the 1 in 5 suggestion; 50% with the 1 each 3, both considering Malice). What I mean is that it's equivalent to an average DPS with that crit chance. So there is a nerf here, it compensates the crit certainty.

    About Rage, maybe we could cap the extra crits, something between 1 and 3. But CC is not that big issue: as it is now, anybody who is CC'd and gets targeted by a late game hunter is pretty much dead anyway.
    Last edited by LuxInterior; 06-17-2016 at 09:23 AM.
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    Junior Member Senior Cupidhead Perplexual's Avatar
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    Crits need to not apply to basic but to certain powers like serqet s square and ne zhas ultimate.
    I state what i want to see. I could give two rats @ss what strangers on the net think. If i want your advice or opinion i'll ask or beat it out of you. I play to win.

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    Senior Member Prestigious LuxInterior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perplexual View Post
    Crits need to not apply to basic but to certain powers like serqet s square and ne zhas ultimate.
    That's removing them from the game.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Prestigious LuxInterior's Avatar
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    Bumpty. I wanna hear from Rodin and other old dudes here.
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    Banned Chosen Gromun's Avatar
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    yr suggestion is remove crit from the game and add items wich has no cd on themselve wich grant additional damage, what the difference between yr idea and hydra? u can jsut suggest new hydra tree wich will procs per 4 basic attacks, or remove from oddysey bow chains and increase its damage, the point of crit is random base factor, from all history of rpg crits was random based (dnd), and hitbox in fps...cute thing here is unpredictablity

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    New Member Cupidhead OzarkMcQueen2's Avatar
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    So me and my friend have been discussing this topic quite a lot since I read the first thread mentioned earlier.

    My thoughts are that positioning and accuracy should determine critical strike opportunity, like initial crits when flanking and on successive auto attacks.

    Using abilities could reset a cooldown on criticals or reduce the number of AA's for the next chain. (I think this latter idea would balance itself as abilities have natural cool downs and require mana, so this feature wouldn't be entirely spammable until perhaps late game when gods naturally have more mana)

    Critical affecting items could say add modifiers like keeping the chain going even with missed shots up to 2s, increasing the the number of successive criticals to 2, and reducing the number of aa's by one.
    These modifiers should still be expensive and very limiting, meaning it should never make sense to have more than one or two over other more important items.

    My friends opinion is that critical chance should stay random but be reduced to a Max of 10% to be more in keeping with old fashioned rpgs where criticals were exceptional because they were rare. As criticals represent the chance you have when aiming for someone's neck that you'd actually hit their jugular. Or that you've successfully attacked the same precise spot enough to penetrate their armor.

    I agree with his ideology but not in keeping them random. I think competitive play should always reward skill over luck as much as possible, as luck is always an ever present variable regardless. Even noobs make incredible plays occasionally.

    If skill is required then criticals would happen less often naturally but also potentially more consistently, which is what skilled players could then strategize around.

    Better God scaling and a wider variety of role specific items should compensate for early to late game damage progression. Ie, choosing to be a carry opens up item trees and closes off others etc.

    And I think that could be very interesting because I think more gods should fit a wider variety of roles.

    E.g. Loki support, khephri Adc, ymir jungle.
    I would like to see more flexibility here to allow for a less rigid 'meta'.

    It would make for far more interesting strategies from casuals and pros alike, making competing more interesting as well as spectating.
    Last edited by OzarkMcQueen2; 06-25-2016 at 01:07 AM.

  9. #29
    Member Follower Ðiamond88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuxInterior View Post
    the first crit item makes you crit each 5th hit, the second the 4th and so on, capping at 3.
    Evaluating the suggestion "Critting every nth hit and reducing n by getting more crit items"


    Evaluating/Adjusting the suggested numbers

    Critting every 5th, 4th and 3rd is the equivalent of having 20%, 25% and 33.33% crit chance respectively (except for some heterogeneous attack chains).These numbers need to be tweaked and we would eventually add additional bonuses to make 2nd and 3rd Crit items worthwhile and here is why:

    Let us ignore the physical power from the items and assume that our basic attack (non crit) does 100 damage and that we have a hunter (no attack chain). With the first Crit item we do a crit every fifth attack. This means the average damage from the basic attack is (100x4 +200)/5=120. With 2 crit items we would get an average damage per auto of (100*3+200)/4= 125 and with 3 crit items we would get 400/3=133.333. After the first crit item, the return is decreasing when we go from 1 crit item to 2 crit items but then becomes increasing when we go from 2 crit items to 3 crit items item but at the same time the improvements from getting 2nd and 3rd crit items are extremely small making 2nd and 3rd crit items not worth getting (by the way, the big improvements happen with small numbers i.e moving from a crit on 3rd to a crit on 2nd is more impactful than moving from 5th to 4th which is again more impactful than moving from 7th to 6th). We have to make the suggestion better by adjusting numbers (see e.g below); we could additionally make the crits hit harder the more crit items we have (with numbers chosen wisely)

    Normally, we want slightly diminishing returns from stacking a stat but don't want improvements to be very negligible. If we change the crit ranks to 6th, 3rd and 2nd the result would be much better. The average damages from AA would be 116.66, 133.33 and 150. With these numbers for example getting the first crit item (disregarding physical power, attack speed, crit damage...) increases our damage by 16.66 %, adding the 2nd one increases the damage by roughly 14.28% (1- 133.33/116.66) and the third by 12.5%.

    Now back to the crit damage, I suggest the third item gives most crit damage so we can feel a power spike. I am a little lazy to check the numbers but can do it if needed (anyway I don't think the developers check the forums )

    For a comparison with current state: currently, by going from 0 crit chance to 20% crit chance we increase our damage ceteris paribus by 20% (assuming no bonus crit damage), going from 20% to 40% increases our damage by 16.66% (140/120) and going from 40% to 60% we get an increase of 14.28% (btw this is 14.2857143... and is exactly the same 14.28% that we got above )

    On a side note, we could allow ourself to have increasing returns only on third crit item to achieve a power spike and that is by making all hits crit with 3 crit items instead of every second hit and to compensate we remove the Bonus Crit Dmg stat. The drawback is that gods with built-in crits would be hurt. 100% crit chance (multiplies damage by 2) is almost equivalent to 70% Crit Chance with Deathbringer's passive of 40% Bonus Crit Dmg (0.7x2.4 +0.3 =1.98). The power spike will be however overly strong (100% crit chance up from 33.33% this alone increases damage by 50% = 1- 2/1.333). To soften it a little, the critting mechanics could be implemented into items' passives and the item whose passive is "if you have 3 crit items you crit on every hit" should have relatively low physical power or more generally low stats. For those who are wondering why I keep mentioning that stacking a damage stat has to have diminishing returns, the reason is pricing and cost-efficiency balancing (diminishing returns also reduce snowball but might be a consequence rather than a reason, I am not sure though)


    Side effect: problems with heterogeneous melee attack progressions


    This suggestion of critting on nth attack is problematic though, because it creates an unbalance and an inconsistency due to the fact that gods don't have the same attack chain. As a result ranged gods will profit more than some melees and some melee gods will profit more than others (while melee gods could play around resetting the auto chain based on the number of crit items they have this is not really feasible with gods such as Kali, Mercury, Baka... Hopefully I don't see comments like "Kali and Baka... are not supposed to buy crits" ). But the worst consequence is that some gods would lose damage from getting more crit items which is absurd. With random crits, if you have a chain like 1x/0.5x/1.5x, all 3 attacks have the same chance to crit. But this is not the case for heterogeneous progressions. Here is an example on how things could really go wrong:

    Assume the following chain 1x/0.5x/0.5x/1.5x and assume you have 1 crit item and that you crit on every 5th hit (I chose 5 on purpose) the first crit will be 1x followed by 0.5x then 0.5x then 1.5x and so on, a regular cycle through all attacks. You decide to buy a 2nd crit item, assume with 2 items you crit on every 4th hit now you crit on the 1.5x all day long. You get a third crit item, say the crit is now on every 3rd hit, now you have lower damage than even with only 1 crit item because you only do crits on the 0.5x. Another god with a 3 attacks progression will be influenced in different way as well, the same goes for gods with different values for their chains. As a result, whatever numbers we chose to make the suggested critting mechanics work for some melee gods, other gods (a lot of them) will be messed up


    A Treatment for the side effect

    One solution to this problem is using an adjusted counting convention for melee attack chains: a 0.5x attack will count as 0.5 hit, and attack of 2x will count as 2 attacks and so on. Take the example of this hypothetical progression 1x/1x/0.5x/1.5x, and assume we crit every third attack: the third attack is made of two parts first the "0.5x" half-attack then the first third of the "1.5x"; each will crit and do 1x instead of 0.5x so in total the 0.5x does 1x and the 1.5x does 2x. With crits on 3rd hit, our chain ends up doing 1x/1x/1x/2x. This solution works for any kind of progressions, removes any weird consequences of getting additional crit items, and makes the suggested critting mechanic fair for all gods.

    Conclusion: The suggestion of critting on nth attack and reducing n by getting more crit items is feasible with well chosen values for n if we remove the heterogeneous attacks chains that many melee gods have (This will however affect on-hit items/gods), or if we use different counting conventions for those chains, or more generally if we give melee and ranged gods different critting mechancis.


    Edit: added a comparison with current state


    Edit2: added a possible solution for the inconsistency we would get for heterogeneous attack chains.
    Last edited by Ðiamond88; 06-26-2016 at 08:15 PM. Reason: added an example

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    Senior Member Infamous PapaRodin's Avatar
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    Ne Zhas Ultimate is one of the few abilities that gets crits right if you so want. His ultimate has no randomness to it, you control whether these strikes deal the extra damage or not by doing the proper input timing.

    His passive, 2 and 3 though would need to have some looks at.


    Serqets 1 deals a lot of damage on it's own already and also shreds protections. That being said, there are a lot of things that I consider to be somewhat problematic about her kit to the point where I wouldn't be opposed to seeing her getting multiple check backs again.
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