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Thread: Suggestions on how to make crits not random

  1. #11
    Senior Member Prestigious Nalessa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuxInterior View Post
    Read again. The end of chain is considered a crit, but you can't add a random crit on it, as it's now. Also, the chain resets if you miss. I didn't propose magical crit items, so Geb wouldn't be affected at all.
    No, what I mean is if you make crits built in and non rng so effectively making it part of every aa dps from the start, then geb with his passive would be broken in duolane as he'd win any engagement by being able to tank wayyyy better then anyone else, to an extent same with hou yi.

    And like I said, it would mean changing every single thing on every autoattacker just to get this new mechanic in, everything would have to be looked at from base stats to items to ability damage to compensate for the fact crits would be changed.
    Never gonna happen, it is wayyyyyy to much of a hassle that can break so many characters.

    Also frostbound Bellona or kali with this change would be ...
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    Lord of the Enigs Infamous Enigmatisty's Avatar
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    This is one of those suggestions that scramble my head so hard that it'll take me some time to actually understand it, but I already like it. Smite's still a baby compared to LoL, and one of the things it could learn from it are conditional crits.

    To be honest, RNG crits should still exist but only for normal basic attacks.

    Rage makes it so that every subsequent hit on a god after the attack chain crit is still a crit, possibly making your chains endless; but it resets if you miss or hit anything but a god
    This would be one scary hell of a rework. Honestly, what I'm garnering from stapling a 100% crit to a chain (specially for hunters, who have no chains), you could potentially keep critting someone especially if you have perfect aim. This would force the need for crit to have a niche of defensive items to be able to counter it with virtually every god so it isn't broken: for example, an item where crits on you have their damage reduced by 10% for 2s, refreshed and boosted by 5% for each crit after that.
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    Junior Member Cupidhead sweet3r's Avatar
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    Two would require reworks on way too many characters and would essentially turn into Artemis clones. No buena.

    I love the idea of attack chains or just crit warning, tho.

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    Senior Member Prestigious LuxInterior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatisty View Post
    This would be one scary hell of a rework. Honestly, what I'm garnering from stapling a 100% crit to a chain (specially for hunters, who have no chains), you could potentially keep critting someone especially if you have perfect aim. This would force the need for crit to have a niche of defensive items to be able to counter it with virtually every god so it isn't broken: for example, an item where crits on you have their damage reduced by 10% for 2s, refreshed and boosted by 5% for each crit after that.
    Fixed free crits would make anti-crit items and passives much more important. However, remember that my proposal for Rage will only reward a god that can keep hitting only gods within 2 seconds. You can hide behind a minion or kite, then Rage's passive is over. Alternatively, we can limit it to 3 crits or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet3r View Post
    Two would require reworks on way too many characters and would essentially turn into Artemis clones. No buena.

    I love the idea of attack chains or just crit warning, tho.
    In no way I think they could implement something like that tomorrow. I'm just making a suggestion they could consider, maybe for a Season change. Also, lots o characters favor crits, are they all Artemis clones?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalessa View Post
    No, what I mean is if you make crits built in and non rng so effectively making it part of every aa dps from the start, then geb with his passive would be broken in duolane as he'd win any engagement by being able to tank wayyyy better then anyone else, to an extent same with hou yi.

    And like I said, it would mean changing every single thing on every autoattacker just to get this new mechanic in, everything would have to be looked at from base stats to items to ability damage to compensate for the fact crits would be changed.
    Never gonna happen, it is wayyyyyy to much of a hassle that can break so many characters.

    Also frostbound Bellona or kali with this change would be ...
    I didn't mean every god's AA chain. I said hunters (and it's in bold) would get a crit every 3, 4 or 5 hits (up to discussion). Warriors and assassins can and cannot have a natural crit - the ones I can remember who have are Guan Yu and Ne Zha, and those guys have long chains. Not Kali, Osiris or Bellona.

    But now you're actually into something, that some gods just wouldn't crit ever, so you couldn't do a crit Bellona or Kali. Maybe we could add another item that would add crits to non-crit physical gods. What if Malice added crits on the 3rd, 4th or 5th hit (depending on which one would be a natural crit) but lessened it in one to those gods who doesn't have natural crits?

    Another thing to consider: crits depend on physical power. An early crit is not very impactful. Or else a Rage start would be good, and we all know it isn't. Also, CC stops crit chains. So Geb isn't that much hotter than he is now. And Hou Yi prevents a crit for 3 seconds, you wouldn't crit that early again with those changes. I think his passive would need to be changed, though.
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    Senior Member Honoured NARGH222's Avatar
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    Might I also point out that as a console player the hit all autos without missing is an unwelcome mechanic. Aiming is way harder on console so this won't transition over very well. You have to think about all platforms

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    Member Worshipper MustaTimo's Avatar
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    This change would make Fatalis a must for all hunters. If you can crit only on the last aa of the attack chain, you must be able to stick to your target, and that would be damn hard w/o Fatalis or Frostbound.

    My suggestion:
    You don't have crit chance by default. For eg.: with your first crit item you get "crit chain" (let's say 5), and then your every fifth aa will crit. You buy another one, and the "crit chain" is shortened by 1 and you will crit on every fourth aa. And so on.
    If you miss, the chain resets.

    What do you think?

    EDIT: I didn't consider how it would work with gods with built in crits, like Jing Wei.
    Last edited by MustaTimo; 06-17-2016 at 02:20 AM.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuxInterior View Post
    We have another thread discussing if random crits are a good thing. Most seasoned players (or at least forum veterans) are saying it isn't, as it removes a competitive aspect of the game when it puts a dice throw above the ability of players to land basics on each other. But I think, as pointed in a video linked in the original post, that crits are funny. So how about we brainstorm a bit on ways to keep crits but make them non-random?

    Here are some preliminary ideas:
    1. Attack chains: as the game is now, some gods have in-build "crits" that are crits in all but name. Like Ne Zha's and some other gods last hit on their chain. Currently, it isn't considered a crit and can't be buffed by crit items (but it can still crit for outrageous damage). So how if we do the following: a) the last attack on a chain is effectively considered a crit, being affected by crit items; b) for hunters, the attack will not be performed at half of the attack speed, but full speed; c) hunters have standardized chains, all getting a crit on the third (or 4th or 5th, up to discussion) hit; d) to not make this overpowered, the chain is reset if you miss, both for hunters and other gods. You can stack your chain on anything.
    2. Ability effects: in addition to chains, some abilities can force crits, 100% chance obviously. Some ideas: a) Hou Yi on applying CC to a marked enemy; b) Jing Wei if she hits more than one enemy in her area attack; c) Anhur if he impales an enemy inside his obelisk; d) Rama on the first hit with astral arrows - this effectively make his chain crit on 1, 4, 7 see bellow; e) Artemis and Neith on rooted enemies;
    3. Item changes: a) Rage makes it so that every subsequent hit on a god after the attack chain crit is still a crit, possibly making your chains endless; but it resets if you miss or hit anything but a god; b) Malice keeps its passive, but in addition it lowers the crit threshold by one hit; c) Wind Demon keeps its passive, additionally it allows you to keep your chain for 1 additional attack if you miss (miss again and you lose it); d) Hydra's Lament guarantees a crit after a successful damage ability hit - as it's a crit, your chain starts over; e) Deathbringer is unchanged, maybe a buff since there's no crit chance anymore;
    4. Crits reset attack chains: so if you get a forced crit, you'll only crit after 3-5 more hits as, usual.
    5. Crit warning: make the hunter glow red or something when they're about to crit; a more elegant idea: make only their weapon glow.

    Notice how crits would be a factor from the game start, but would be very influenced by items, so that hunters are sill late game gods. My favorite number for the standardized hunter chain is 4 - it's equivalent to Odysseus' Bow, which passive cold change to "whenever you crit".

    What do you think?

    EDIT 2 - unified the post with the most recent thoughts and cleared it up.
    In my opinion, Crits haven't existed for the hype as the other thread tries to claim. I think the hype was initially a consequence then became one of the reasons. I think Crits were brought for this reason. The hunter/ADC class is supposed to have a weak early game DPS from basic attacks and very high late game DPS. To make something very weak grow fast and become strong, one way is to have an exponential growth. For example if your base DPS is D your end game DPS would be e.g 2^n D where you have n similar DPS multipliers (all equal to 2 in this example) or more generally A1 x A2 x A3 x .... x An x D where the "Ai"s are various damage multipliers (obviously each is greater than 1).

    In smite we have many independent DPS multipliers in which come from Physical Power, Attack Speed, Crit Chance and Bonus Crit Damage (the DPS function is linear (proportional) or quasi-linear (affine) in its variables). For simplicity we are going to ignore the Bonus Crit Damage. Qin's passive is included in the Physical Power category even though it has a variable physical auto attack power and part of its damage does't crit. I will also be ignoring penetration as well as low tier items in this post.

    To make things less abstract let us consider numerical examples. Assume we have 100 base auto attack damage and attack speed of 1 attack per second and 0 crit chance so our DPS is 100. Buying 50 physical power makes our DPS (from AAs) 150 and our DPS is multiplied by 1.5, purchasing 40% attack speed makes our AS grow from 1 to 1.4 thus our DPS is again multiplied by 1.4, buying both give a combined multiplier of 1.5x1.4= 2.1 and brings our DPS from 100 to 210. Beside Attack Speed and Phys Power, crit chance is another diver:
    Expected DPS = no Crit DPS x CC x 2 + no Crit DPS x (1- CC) = no Crit DPS + no Crit DPS x CC (ignoring things like Qin's passive and Bonus Crit Damage)
    Going from 0 CC to 40% CC multiplies our average DPS by 1.4

    Now imagine we don't have access to crits and see what happens when we stack only one type of DPS drivers. When you purchase your first 50 physical power you multiply your DPS by 1.5, if you get another 50 physical power for the same price, you are now going from 150 to 200 thus multiplying the DPS 1.3333....to get the 1.5 again you will need to get 75 physical power or 50% attack speed (we are level 0 i.e I ignored the attack speed per level). The same applies to Attack Speed and Crit Chance. For simplicity I am talking about the stats independently and assuming they are always priced in the same way (i.e 50 physical power in tier 3 items always has the same price) Working exclusively on 1 damage driver is not optimal for traditional MOBA's ADC and has diminishing returns to the DPS growth (things like Jhin from LOL is out of our discussion). This is illustrated in the next example.

    Just to make sure I am clear, I will consider this hypothetical example in which there are no abilities in the game, just basic attacks. We are at base attack speed of 1 attack per second, have 100 AA damage and 0% crit chance. We have access to only 3 types of items and we are limited to 3 item slots: 1st type gives 20 physical power, 2nd type gives 20% attack speed and 3rd type gives 20% crit chance. Assume we have only 1500 Gold. Purchasing only one item will increase our DPS by 20% regardless of the type, thus the items have the same price of 500 Gold each (some will argue that Crit Chance should be slightly cheaper to compensate for the risk but let's ignore that). We can purchase 3 items at most.

    The worst cases are the ones in which we buy the same type, for example buying 3 x 20 physical power. We end up having 160 auto attack damage thus our DPS got multiplied by 1.6 . The optimal combination is 1 item of each type. By doing so we increase our DPS by 20% then by 20% then by 20%. Our DPS gets multiplied by 1.2^3=1.728 >1.6 . Now this doesn't seem to be a big difference 1.73 vs 1.6 however if we replace the 20 in our example by a greater number say 50 we will get 3.375 vs 2.5 . If we include more DPS drivers such as penetration and Bonus Crit Damage the bonus DPS from diversifying gets even bigger. In general, the more multipliers you can get the higher the potential DPS you can have.

    One last thing to mention in response to the "the game should be only about skill not randomness" argument. The existence of crits adds depth to the game, and requires players to have the skill of assessing/managing the risk that comes from randomness. (Btw, I think that the person who has crits takes more risk than the one attacked by the crit holder). Since everyone knows the probability that someone crits at any given time (I am lazy to cover rage's passive but you got my point), we can't say crits are luck based. (and while the person with crits can get a kill thanks to crits in a row and be what some calls "lucky", he can also be unlucky and dies/misses a kill for not getting the crit he was hoping for.)

    While I haven't thought much about alternatives for the crits I see a problem with some of your suggestions (points 1, 2 and partially 3). Shifting one of the DPS drivers from items to the hunter's kit (e.g crits) has the problem of making hunters stronger early game, as well as late game since they would focus on the other stats in items (Transcendence, Bloodforge would be a must buy for example) and the late game would be crazier than it is right now. And if one doesn't have a problem with stronger early game for hunters, to keep the same late game as now the physical power items and eventually attack speed should see their numbers nerfed creating unwanted problems for warriors and assassins. . That is why I don't see it a good solution.

    If you want to get rid of the randomness of crits you could replace crits by a no-variance damage multiplier or make crits conditional. A no-variance damage multiplier would be for example a stat like this "your basic attack damage is increased by 20%" and we can make it stack additively just like the other stats (to ensure diminishing returns on stacking). This way hunter's early game is not made any stronger. Making conditional crits is a harder task and might require an overhaul. Introducing some Tier 4 items after removing crits may also be a solution.

    Regarding you suggestion for Rage, I think this would be broken against CCed gods but will also promote Frostbound on hunters to reduce the chance of missing. With such a Rage, getting a Frostbound won't hurt the DPS.

    I find your suggestions for Malice, Deathbringer and Winged Demon to be fine. Your point 4 is good as long as you are applying changes to items such as the ones you suggested. I like your last point, I would also give the projectile for the crits a special effect. (for melee this will be subtle though and some melee gods attack very fast that you won't have the time to see the god glow ).

    I personally don't have any issues with crits but since some people have and since removing randomness is indeed healthier to the game (seeing how snowbally Smite is, dying to a lucky crit... can really be an issue) I decided to write my thoughts.

    Note: Correcting some English mistakes I make is welcomed but comments such as "learn to write proper English" or "I can't take you seriously with those English mistakes" are not welcomed at all. (I hope moderators ban people with such comments). I am sorry about the bad formatting (for indices among other things).

    Off-topic suggestion: Qin's passive is much more problematic than crits and needs to be adjusted. Currently Qins gives so much damage even against the squishy Anubis. It was supposed to be an anti-HP-stacking item. (Ironically we don't have high amounts of Hp in items to stack HP). Maybe make it a % of current HP instead or a mix of both.

    Edit: In all MOBAs the ADCs and sustained DPS mages are needed to kill the enemy tanks/warriors late game (beside taking objectives). Thus the offense should outscale the defense, which is obvious for most of us. Notice that defense has 2 main drivers HP and Protections (HP5 and heals are secondary and have counter plays/items), while the offense for hunters/assasins for example has more : Physical power, Attack speed, Crit Chance, Bonus Crit Damage and penetration. That is to confirm my point that Crit Chance is not all about the hype.

    Edit2: added an example

    Edit3: added a point about risk management and that "randomness" is not equal to "luck" when probabilities are known.
    Last edited by Ðiamond88; 07-08-2016 at 05:46 PM.

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    Member Follower Ðiamond88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuxInterior View Post
    Another thing to consider: crits depend on physical power. An early crit is not very impactful. Or else a Rage start would be good, and we all know it isn't. Also, CC stops crit chains. So Geb isn't that much hotter than he is now. And Hou Yi prevents a crit for 3 seconds, you wouldn't crit that early again with those changes. I think his passive would need to be changed, though.
    Having a 100% crit chance at the start of the game doubles your auto damage as it would double will full build and much physical power. All is relative and that is why I talked about DPS growth in my previous post. I took 100% as an extreme example just to clarify the point that having built-in crit is very strong regardless of whether it is early game or late game. (My point is not 100% accurate because people's HP pool and protections will be growing in different patterns than your DPS as a hunter. Actually a 100% crit chance is normally stronger at level 1 than at lvl 20 against a guardian, in terms of number of auto attacks needed to kill him. I was lazy to do the exact math and account for the attack speed.)

    Edit: I have disregarded the Deathbringer's passive
    Last edited by Ðiamond88; 06-17-2016 at 04:12 AM.

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    Member Worshipper ChromosomaExtra's Avatar
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    To diamond1 (too much stuff to quote).

    Thanks, you completely changed my idea about crits. I however still want the rng factor to be removed, so thanks for your ideas.
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    Senior Member Prestigious zecleria's Avatar
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    how about making crit work like this:
    one crit item:every fifth hit will be a crit
    two crit item:every fourth and fifth hit will be a crit
    three crit item:every third fourth and fifth will be a crit.

    caps at 3 and rage counts as two crit items.
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