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Thread: Guardians are fake.

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    Member Follower Orsin56's Avatar
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    Guardians are fake.

    I have come to realize that most guardians in this game are not even guardians but more of damage dealers. The only guardians that fit in this statement, "a defender, protector, or keeper" are Sylvanus, Geb, Khepri and a little of Athena. The ones that are nothing but an excuse of a protector are, Ares, Ymir, Kumba, Cabrakan, a little of sobek, a little of Xing Tian, and Bacchus. Now i am aware of Ares's second ability that gives protections and crowd control reduction, Sobek's 1st ability, Xing Tian's ultimate, and Ymir's wall etc. Remember that I am over simplifying. Here are the specifics:

    According to Smite Wiki, and I quote,"...Their damage output tends to be LOW, but they usually have high crowd control and are capable of withstanding more damage than other classes, allowing them to PROTECT their more vulnerable allies or setting up combinations and creating favorable opportunities for them." Now before people start to say anything let me break this down God by God. (Also remember that a Guardian should be the only one who can do something that helps others than other classes. Stuns, roots and cripple and other cc that most Gods get are purely for damage and for set-ups which are not to ACTUALLY help your teammates. You could argue that you saved many teammates as a damage dealer character but i can say the same as a pure damage Ymir, which then just proves how easy it is to manipulate guardians)

    Ares: ONLY his 2nd and 4th ability contains some type of guardian-like aspect or sets up, but everything else, NOPE. How is his passive "Blessed Presence" which gives power for every aura item a Guardian-like ability? How is his 3 "Searing Flesh" any help to his "vulnerable allies?" Ares's 1 does provide cripple, which could be a set up, however his damage that comes with it is more of a straight, "let me just take all of your health down so i can let my teammate here get the last few hits and then consider my self as a protector even though I did all the damage." Enough is said. Decent protector

    Athena: Her taunt and ultimate is very HELPFUL to her teammates, it protects and sets up "favorable opportunities," however her her 3 and the extra ranged attack you get from Athena's passive is COMPLETELY NOT a guardian-like ability. It doesn't set up anything nor help anyone. Damaging someone isn't something a "guardian" should be doing but rather for another class who is built for damaging like a warrior or bruiser assassin. Good guardian.

    Bacchus; Nothing but MAYBE a knock-up that deals a decent amount of damage and also a 1 second stun AFTER all of the damage of the burp are in the "set up" category and his ultimate that just makes it even harder to predict the enemies movement patterns, but besides that Bacchus has no abilities that buffs or helps a teammate and instead just has self-buff passive that gives him moar damage and even more damage. (Stunning someone who is about to kill your teammate isn't considered a guardian, because if it is considered to be a guardian, then i guess everyone who has a stun is a guardian too)
    Poor protector

    Cabrakan: I don't need to explain anything about this so called "guardian" but only his passive is actually a guardian-like ability. What was his other name? ohh yeah, 'Fat-Loki" Poor protector

    Geb: So even though Geb doesn't have a passive that allows him to help others, it does help him stay in the battlefield and doesn't give power. Geb's first ability has isn't much of anything besides for rotation and...the insane damage that comes with it...at max rank it is 400 + 50% of your power....k His second ability is mainly for "set ups" and doesn't have much dama...370 + 50%....k Geb's third and fourth are the only abilities that make him as a protector and great for setting things up. Good guardian.

    Khepri: You guys wanna know why Khepri is still top tier even though receiving around 7 nerfs? That is because Hi Rez is mainly focusing about the DAMAGE part of Khepri and NOT the actual reason. Hi Rez can nerf Khepri to the point of dealing 0 damage on all of his abilities and he still would be high in tier. This is because of his guardian-like abilites. He pulls people toward their team, which isn't what a protector does, however it is the fact that it SILENCES you while he pulls and takes the damage that the "prey" is trying to hit behind Khepri (His allies). His 2 ACTUALLY makes your for once look at your teammates and give protections! His 3 is just another "set up" ability. His passive GIVES temporarily hit-points! And last but most definitely the most supportive ability on Smite which is Khepri's ultimate, it provides rebirth, movement speed, immunity to slows, and USED to provide power. That is why he is still banned in every ranked game. He is an actual guardian.

    Kumbhakarna: Literally he is all about "set-ups" and damage with self revive. Excellent at "creating favorable opportunities" but that is it. Alright-protector.

    Sobek: He has a self passive that gives him more survivability which doesn't give POWER, a good set up with his 1, 3 and 4. But everything else seems to be SELF, SELF SELF SELF. He gets self protections, with self heal, with self mana regen. Alright-protector.

    Sylvanus: His SELF passive gives him standing against enemy basic attackers. His 1 is a good guardian ability that provides mana regen and a set up. His 3 is another good set up as well as his ultimate that doesn't deal OVER considerate damage, or insane burst. His 2 is a perfect guardian ability, that can also work well with items such as lotus crown. A good guardian.

    Xing Tian: Another SELF passive that gives him health regen. His 1 is purely for damage but has a good debuff. His 2 is purely for set ups. His 3 is just more damage with MORE self buffs. His ultimate is really good at setting things up with his teammates but that is really all. Decent protector.

    Ymir: Alright his passive makes no since what-so ever. It's like Hi Rez wants Ymir to get Polynomicon. His wall is good at setting up and blocking off enemies. His 2 is purely for damage...370 + 70%...k His 3 is really good at setting things up but also deals a decent amount of damage. Ymir's ultimate is really goo....1100 + 150%....poor protector...

    Conclusion: There are too many Guardians that are mainly for damaging, instead of protecting. You see way more players building pure damage on guardians than you see assassins/mages/hunters building pure defense. This is because players KNOW that guardians can basically be capable of being manipulated to slay enemies in less than few seconds. I mean Hades got switched from Guardian role, to Mage role even though he has great set ups, decent AOE healing, and silence. But he got a re-role because he really isn't a God who can protect their teammates. Hi Rez themselves did not even know if Hades is a Guardian or Mage. This really tells me that Hi Rez just want a God who can have CC+Damage and count that as a "Guardian." Let me re-quote this, "Their damage output tends to be low" this is obviously false since ymir's ultimate used to deal the most damaging ultimate in the game until Anubis came.

    Wiki Link:
    http://smite.gamepedia.com/Category:Guardian_gods
    Last edited by Orsin56; 04-29-2016 at 04:58 PM.
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    Banned Prestigious Endag's Avatar
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    Geb low damage lmfao.

    Stopped reading after seeing that.

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    Member Follower Orsin56's Avatar
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    Where did i say he has low damage? Or were you saying that Geb HAS low damage? If it was the second one, then you are really dont know what 400 + 50% of your magical power is.
    Loki will ALWAYS have your back.

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    A Tragic Product of Swedish Advertising Demigod SirKeksalot's Avatar
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    The wiki isn't exactly known for being accurate 100% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endag View Post
    Geb low damage lmfao.

    Stopped reading after seeing that.
    Because he doesn't always have total control over how much damage he does, and because his ultimate doesn't really do much without pen (which, let's be real, isn't good on Geb), he really doesn't have that much damage.
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    Senior Member Prestigious xVIPx Superb's Avatar
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    Did you source a wiki?

    LOL

    Prepare to rewrite your entire paper in school.

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    Senior Member Infamous Outso187's Avatar
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    It's smite wiki, it's not official. Also, most guardians do fall off on damage late game, they dominate early with their high base dmg.
    Rip & Tear

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    Senior Member Chosen Slaycrol's Avatar
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    If we would design Guardians like guardians it would be too easy, i prefer my tanks with own kits, combos and dmg......and atleast the chance to be able to deal dmg.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsin56 View Post
    The only guardians that fit in this statement, "a defender, protector, or keeper" are Sylvanus, Geb, Khepri and a little of Athena.
    i think i have to post more of my plays as "tanks" here, Sylv deals so damn much dmg its disgusting lol
    Khepri can oneshot combo with poly if done right and with ult outrun you
    Geb, same as sylv as both have perfect synergy with poly and SR

    every guardian has such a good synergy with these 2 items, you can follow it up into a perfect combo

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    Member Follower Ravaana's Avatar
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    OK... I will bite


    Guardians are not fake. And though I understand where you are coming from, I disagree. The listing that you gave is flawed, in my opinion, and for one simple reason.

    Guardians are meant to stay in the fight, for as long as possible. By any means possible. They provide a role of support, yes. But support comes in many different forms. Sometimes support can be a wall to hide behind, and in Smite that is the general Idea that people think of...

    Other times support can be other means. Such as Artillery support, and suppressing fire, medical support, evacuation teams. When you look at real world scenarios, the support role is not as defined as you may think. Every one of them have a specific job, yes. But they also have to be able to do that job, as well as defend themselves during the process.

    But to say that a support character should have no means of defending themselves? That is just ridiculous. If that were to be true, then non support characters should have no means of escape NOR should they have crowd control... Of any sort.

    Below I have added to your descriptions. Please understand that I am not attempting to bring you down in any way. Instead I am attempting to enlighten or expand upon an idea.

    Over all I understand a lot of the points, it is just that you have missed out on a few things. The majority of the abilities that are "only for damage" have drawbacks, and other things attached to the kit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orsin56 View Post
    I have come to realize that most guardians in this game are not even guardians but more of damage dealers. The only guardians that fit in this statement, "a defender, protector, or keeper" are Sylvanus, Geb, Khepri and a little of Athena. The ones that are nothing but an excuse of a protector are, Ares, Ymir, Kumba, Cabrakan, a little of sobek, a little of Xing Tian, and Bacchus. Now i am aware of Ares's second ability that gives protections and crowd control reduction, Sobek's 1st ability, Xing Tian's ultimate, and Ymir's wall etc. Remember that I am over simplifying. Here are the specifics:

    According to Smite Wiki, and I quote,"...Their damage output tends to be LOW, but they usually have high crowd control and are capable of withstanding more damage than other classes, allowing them to PROTECT their more vulnerable allies or setting up combinations and creating favorable opportunities for them." Now before people start to say anything let me break this down God by God. (Also remember that a Guardian should be the only one who can do something that helps others than other classes. Stuns, roots and cripple and other cc that most Gods get are purely for damage and for set-ups which are not to ACTUALLY help your teammates. You could argue that you saved many teammates as a damage dealer character but i can say the same as a pure damage Ymir, which then just proves how easy it is to manipulate guardians)

    Ares: ONLY his 2nd and 4th ability contains some type of guardian-like aspect or sets up, but everything else, NOPE. How is his passive "Blessed Presence" which gives power for every aura item a Guardian-like ability? How is his 3 "Searing Flesh" any help to his "vulnerable allies?" Ares's 1 does provide cripple, which could be a set up, however his damage that comes with it is more of a straight, "let me just take all of your health down so i can let my teammate here get the last few hits and then consider my self as a protector even though I did all the damage." Enough is said. Decent protector

    Ares is a combat tank. While providing status effects from his Chains and Flames (Gem of Isolation, Spear of Magus) he supports his team by keeping the opponent in combat. While in combat a player has decreased HP/MP5, and cannot use abilities like Blink to run away. Yes, he does damage. Yes his passive adds power to himself, but by giving him a selfish incentive, he doesn't have to build as many power items to fight if he is the last one alive.



    Athena: Her taunt and ultimate is very HELPFUL to her teammates, it protects and sets up "favorable opportunities," however her her 3 and the extra ranged attack you get from Athena's passive is COMPLETELY NOT a guardian-like ability. It doesn't set up anything nor help anyone. Damaging someone isn't something a "guardian" should be doing but rather for another class who is built for damaging like a warrior or bruiser assassin. Good guardian.

    Athena: Shield wall is a source of damage for Athena. And it is needed. To say that she is not allowed to defend herself with anything but basic attacks, that is just not something that I agree with. The Shield Wall gives her a way to finalize a kill if she needs to, as well as soften up opponents for her team. Reach, that ability is for keeping those people that have slipped away in combat, much like Ares' flames and chains. Maybe not nearly as effective, but it can help. A lot.



    Bacchus; Nothing but MAYBE a knock-up that deals a decent amount of damage and also a 1 second stun AFTER all of the damage of the burp are in the "set up" category and his ultimate that just makes it even harder to predict the enemies movement patterns, but besides that Bacchus has no abilities that buffs or helps a teammate and instead just has self-buff passive that gives him moar damage and even more damage. (Stunning someone who is about to kill your teammate isn't considered a guardian, because if it is considered to be a guardian, then i guess everyone who has a stun is a guardian too)
    Poor protector

    Bacchus has three different forms of CC. A knock up, Stun, and the drunken stupor that is his ultimate. Yes, he does damage. But, again, what kind of tank isn't able to fight back? A bad one. And the protections he gains that are for himself? Well... Haven't you seen how many times people focus the tank, instead of the squishies? And if they are not focused on the targets that are easier to kill, he is doing his job very well.



    Cabrakan: I don't need to explain anything about this so called "guardian" but only his passive is actually a guardian-like ability. What was his other name? ohh yeah, 'Fat-Loki" Poor protector

    Cabraken is more of the Goliath style of tank. He hits hard, and is meant to keep your character locked down. Every one of his abilities adds a type of CC. He can stun, slow, cripple, wobble, wall, trap and make people want to focus him first. Or just run away. He does a lot of damage, yes. But he serves his purpose, and sets up his team-mates very well.



    Geb: So even though Geb doesn't have a passive that allows him to help others, it does help him stay in the battlefield and doesn't give power. Geb's first ability has isn't much of anything besides for rotation and...the insane damage that comes with it...at max rank it is 400 + 50% of your power....k His second ability is mainly for "set ups" and doesn't have much dama...370 + 50%....k Geb's third and fourth are the only abilities that make him as a protector and great for setting things up. Good guardian.

    Geb's Roll out is both a manuevering ability and a form of CC that allows him to deny someone an escape, or chase. He can knock someone into, or out of, position. It is, also, meant to move him into a better position to allow him to body block, or otherwise deny an enemy set-up.




    Sobek: He has a self passive that gives him more survivability which doesn't give POWER, a good set up with his 1, 3 and 4. But everything else seems to be SELF, SELF SELF SELF. He gets self protections, with self heal, with self mana regen. Alright-protector.

    By keeping himself in the fight, Sobek is doing the team justice. The Self heals, and protections, are a way to allow him extended engagements. This enables him to body block, pluck, and otherwise keep the enemy focus on him.



    Xing Tian: Another SELF passive that gives him health regen. His 1 is purely for damage but has a good debuff. His 2 is purely for set ups. His 3 is just more damage with MORE self buffs. His ultimate is really good at setting things up with his teammates but that is really all. Decent protector.

    For Xing, see the Ares comment that I made. And as for the regen? I have said before, keeping Xing in the fight longer enables him to do his job.....


    Ymir: Alright his passive makes no since what-so ever. It's like Hi Rez wants Ymir to get Polynomicon. His wall is good at setting up and blocking off enemies. His 2 is purely for damage...370 + 70%...k His 3 is really good at setting things up but also deals a decent amount of damage. Ymir's ultimate is really goo....1100 + 150%....poor protector...

    Again I am going to say that there is more to this. While, his passive is odd it has a meaning behind it. Perhaps just that short little bop to keep someone facing him, or not allowing them to get away. Glacial strike also applies a 35% slow. So yes that is not just for damage, it applies more CC. His ult? Shards of Ice provides another slow. and basically a tac nuke if it charges for the full 3second duration. Rarely does a Ymir get to charge for the full 3 seconds. The rest of the time the damage is about 1/3 of the maximum potential.


    Conclusion: There are too many Guardians that are mainly for damaging, instead of protecting. You see way more players building pure damage on guardians than you see assassins/mages/hunters building pure defense. This is because players KNOW that guardians can basically be capable of being manipulated to slay enemies in less than few seconds. I mean Hades got switched from Guardian role, to Mage role even though he has great set ups, decent AOE healing, and silence. But he got a re-role because he really isn't a God who can protect their teammates. Hi Rez themselves did not even know if Hades is a Guardian or Mage. This really tells me that Hi Rez just want a God who can have CC+Damage and count that as a "Guardian." Let me re-quote this, "Their damage output tends to be low" this is obviously false since ymir's ultimate used to deal the most damaging ultimate in the game until Anubis came.

    Anubis has been in the game since day one. Ymir's ultimate has never been the most damaging in the game.



    Wiki Link:
    http://smite.gamepedia.com/Category:Guardian_gods
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    Member Follower Orsin56's Avatar
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    I think you guys are confusing the word "tank" and "support/guardian." There can be a squishy mage with only supportive abilities (such as buffs/heals etc.) and that would still be considered a "guardian." Anyone can go tank, however only few can go support/guardian. I may not have an accurate statement however I'm only referring that there are too many guardians with more DPS abilities than actual supportive abilities. There are too much self buffs and not enough buffs to provide for their teammates. And i am aware of the reasons for the "self buffs" so that they can sustain in fights. However that is described to be a "tank" and not a support/guardian. Honestly, there should be 1 more role in smite which is "tank" and the other to be "guardian" but that is just a loud thought.

    ANYWAY ....for example, most games who has a support class contains buffs to the team, heals to the team. Now im not saying all guardians should heal, however there definitely could of been more supportive abilities that doesn't have to do with pure DPS.

    All in all, I just don't think Hi Rez can make a proper Guardian without having to slap 300+ magical scaling on it. While it does fall off late game IF built pure tank, however if built damage or hybrid, ymir for example, could still solo a carry which isn't correct. No guardians should be able to kill faster than a carry with or without damage builds because that defeats the purpose of "guardian" and shows how guardians can be used for their massive ability scaling for people's own advantage.
    Last edited by Orsin56; 04-29-2016 at 08:08 PM.
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    Ex-Forum Moderator Infamous IrishPotato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orsin56 View Post
    ANYWAY ....for example, most games who has a support class contains buffs to the team, heals to the team.
    Smite isn't most games. Characters that you'd think fit the role of a support, I.E. Hel, Aphrodite, may work conventionally in "other games", however in Smite's gameplay and style and/or meta they don't fit. Guardians should be a force to be reckoned with. It's their intimidation and zoning potential that allows the carries to catch up towards the late game. Like others have said, guardians have the high base damage for early game, but that doesn't translate in the late game unless you're forcing damage items, whereas you're losing on on more defensive item potential for the most part.
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