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Thread: Any chance we could receive some sort of Territory control gametype?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaRodin View Post
    Well you could still give it the egyptian theme. Or a Hindu theme. Not another greek map, I still have a strong distaste for Conquest 2.0.

    That aside, for a game mode to be functional, it has to be novel/interesting and fun to play but also in some way distinguish itself from existing gamemodes outside of factors like player numbers.

    Siege for example had a solid start. It is a mini conquest, but it made up for it by being much faster and having the siege mechanic, causing an overall much faster and chaotic game experience than what people knew from conquest while still being about tower defense and people enjoyed it for that. Subsequent changes took that concept and nerfed it in the wrong places, reducing the player number to 4 took alot of appeal out of the game and as players grew better (and with some item/god/gamechanges), the whole siege mechanic lost some of its meaning, especially as the game went on.

    There have been ideas on how to fix siege mode (I liked the idea of someone, posted recently to increase the teamcount to 5 again and redesign the map to an asymetric design with two juggernauts in the middle of the map, but HP numbers on Juggernauts need adjustments as well) sounded interesting and is a nice way to start to look at.


    In regards of dominion, it did try to do the right thing, and there were not too many flaws with it imo. The biggest issue that it had from my experience is that most players playing it had no idea how the game and the gamemode works. We have advanced training videos for all game modes that are helpful in this regard and something like that would be needed for a special gamemode like domination as well.
    I will agree with Dominion there. I don't know it's full life cycle as I was not at HiRez when it was removed but I have heard stories. From a player perspective at that time it was confusing and often times left you wondering what was happening as there was no great feedback. How long until I lost a point would I get my giant back? I killed it, why don't I have one now. Oh, they are standing on it? Oh, I have to stand on it and push them off, oh wait, this still isn't working...etc. etc.

    At it's core it is a point control mode, and I think that is where you would need to return to to build a new one.

    Personal Opinion below, this isn't HiRez's view but my personal once if I had to analyse Siege.

    Siege is a little different, as it was an experiment with a new type of mode, and over time it was adjusted (largely based on community feedback, we ran a test period of 5 vs. 4 members and found better user enjoyment at 4). I think while Siege could use some love in some places, fundamentally it won't ever really retain a high playerbase. Most people who play either like Conquest or Arena, and specifically they like the strategy aspect or the chaotic aspect. Siege isn't enough of it's own thing to really pull people towards it for most people. I am more saying this as someone who has watched from the inside and how players behave towards new modes, changes, adjustments, marketing, ect.

    Siege as a whole right now fills it's niche and does it well enough. By changing anything at this point we risk pushing people out of it rather than moving people into it. If it were to be changed, it would likely need to see large mechanical adjustments with much heavier emphasis on the Siege tech, which is risky as it could backfire.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Infamous PapaRodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiRezPonPon View Post
    I will agree with Dominion there. I don't know it's full life cycle as I was not at HiRez when it was removed but I have heard stories. From a player perspective at that time it was confusing and often times left you wondering what was happening as there was no great feedback. How long until I lost a point would I get my giant back? I killed it, why don't I have one now. Oh, they are standing on it? Oh, I have to stand on it and push them off, oh wait, this still isn't working...etc. etc.

    At it's core it is a point control mode, and I think that is where you would need to return to to build a new one.

    Personal Opinion below, this isn't HiRez's view but my personal once if I had to analyse Siege.

    Siege is a little different, as it was an experiment with a new type of mode, and over time it was adjusted (largely based on community feedback, we ran a test period of 5 vs. 4 members and found better user enjoyment at 4). I think while Siege could use some love in some places, fundamentally it won't ever really retain a high playerbase. Most people who play either like Conquest or Arena, and specifically they like the strategy aspect or the chaotic aspect. Siege isn't enough of it's own thing to really pull people towards it for most people. I am more saying this as someone who has watched from the inside and how players behave towards new modes, changes, adjustments, marketing, ect.

    Siege as a whole right now fills it's niche and does it well enough. By changing anything at this point we risk pushing people out of it rather than moving people into it. If it were to be changed, it would likely need to see large mechanical adjustments with much heavier emphasis on the Siege tech, which is risky as it could backfire.
    I only played Dominion when it was available as an MOTD every now and then. Of course, that opens another can of worms right with it, but here is my observation with what was bad about the game mode:

    1. That whole "stepping on it" thing you mention I actually have no idea what you are talking about, sounds like heavy mechanical issues I never experienced when playing it.
    2. Hunters were overpowered. Being able to take care of the sand golem from a safe range while being protected by a wall seperating you from your minions meant that you could pretty safely tab them for your team.
    3. People playing with me had no idea about the importance of minions and farm. It is pretty much what you experience in conquest and the solo lane right now: I could sit on my side, protecting my golem, taking care of minions and somehow end up 5-10 levels ahead of the rest of my team (and the enemies team for that matter) which was scattered around the map, trying to do things. A while ago, i asked you about whether or not hiRez is thinking or experimenting with gamemodes without minions and/or whether they have plants to deviate from the typical minion line up. Honestly, dominion to me seems to be the perfect game mode to start experimenting with that.

    For example (and it is really just a stupid example, you have the map without minions but 3-5 Sandgolems. You have a high gold spooling of 6-8 gold per second, but every sand golem you have not only gives you points towards victory but also increases the gold spooling of your team.

    4. The map had a difficult to understand and comprehend design imo. the paths between the three golems were designed very strangely and narrow, the buff camps were placed at the corners of the maps and rarely utilized/fought over because of that and so on.



    When it comes to Dominion, I would make a huge event out of it. You still probably have the necessary stuff for dominion flying around on your servers. Make a huge forum announcement/reddit announcement on you wanting to reintroduce the map and the concept, but as a rework.

    Make it available as an MOTD for a week or so and create a thread and/or reddit post where people can post what they like, what they dislike, what they would want to see from tht kind of gamemode and/or what they would dislike to see.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaRodin View Post
    When it comes to Dominion, I would make a huge event out of it. You still probably have the necessary stuff for dominion flying around on your servers. Make a huge forum announcement/reddit announcement on you wanting to reintroduce the map and the concept, but as a rework.
    My current understanding of Dominion is that some of the assets are old/don't work with new tech, the servers themselves can no longer run it, and much of the scripting is borked. It isn't a "turn it on again" or even a "let everyone download it". Domination to be playable would require enough work to only make it realistic for us to bring it back if it was something more substantial. With all the other stuff we are working on, the reward simply isn't worth delaying other content.

    The current form isn't substantial enough to last on it's own, so it would need a pretty massive revamp which is a whole new project. Just watching Clash get made which is relatively simple took a long time. Making a Domination style map work is something we would have to be comfortable dedicating the resources to, as a new mode.

    Again, not saying it won't happen, but at the very least don't expect anything soon in that department, especially since we have released 2 new modes/maps pretty recently.

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    Senior Member Infamous PapaRodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiRezPonPon View Post
    My current understanding of Dominion is that some of the assets are old/don't work with new tech, the servers themselves can no longer run it, and much of the scripting is borked. It isn't a "turn it on again" or even a "let everyone download it". Domination to be playable would require enough work to only make it realistic for us to bring it back if it was something more substantial. With all the other stuff we are working on, the reward simply isn't worth delaying other content.

    The current form isn't substantial enough to last on it's own, so it would need a pretty massive revamp which is a whole new project. Just watching Clash get made which is relatively simple took a long time. Making a Domination style map work is something we would have to be comfortable dedicating the resources to, as a new mode.

    Again, not saying it won't happen, but at the very least don't expect anything soon in that department, especially since we have released 2 new modes/maps pretty recently.
    Nah, if it can't be realized somewhat easily, it can't be helped. At least now I know why Domination isn't in the MOTD Rotation anymore, I always wondered about that and found it quite sad.

    I also understand that working on a map is a lot of work that takes quite a lot of time, but I still liked the idea of actually designing a map while also including the community in the process. Domination would have been the best and probably only concept to actually realize this idea of involvement, but eh, can't help it.
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    Senior Member Prestigious AlexNemesis's Avatar
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    In a moba type game, it can be a cancer, Dominion was a cancer on LOL, they only got rid of them. Domination was no different, the best part about that mode was the Egyptian theme, which is missing now.

    Why it was cancer? Cause a god with large aoe skills could hold a point, while the invisible and gods with global ultimates gank different points. That was the only comp you could see, both LOL and Smite. Wasn't fun at all.

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    Senior Member Infamous PapaRodin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexNemesis View Post
    In a moba type game, it can be a cancer, Dominion was a cancer on LOL, they only got rid of them. Domination was no different, the best part about that mode was the Egyptian theme, which is missing now.

    Why it was cancer? Cause a god with large aoe skills could hold a point, while the invisible and gods with global ultimates gank different points. That was the only comp you could see, both LOL and Smite. Wasn't fun at all.
    I found hunters very good in domination as well.

    And the snowball was very hard in that game because people tended to just ignore minions unless they were defending.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaRodin View Post
    I found hunters very good in domination as well.

    And the snowball was very hard in that game because people tended to just ignore minions unless they were defending.
    When I remember, Apollo and Artemis, Apollo global presence, Art, chained CC ult to control the point.
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    I hate every single mode in this game but assault, conquest, and arena. Every other mode is just a atulid variation of conquest with some gimmick to try and make it feel special or unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by PapaRodin View Post
    In regards of dominion, it did try to do the right thing, and there were not too many flaws with it imo. The biggest issue that it had from my experience is that most players playing it had no idea how the game and the gamemode works.
    So much this that it hurts! People treated it like it was just some battle arena, going as far as to chase enemies all the way to their base, despite the fact that kills didn't matter in this mode. What matters was how well you controlled the obelisk. 1 person in one lane, another person in the other and your team rotates between the two, occasionally applying pressure to the third.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    I hate every single mode in this game but assault, conquest, and arena. Every other mode is just a atulid variation of conquest with some gimmick to try and make it feel special or unique.


    So much this that it hurts! People treated it like it was just some battle arena, going as far as to chase enemies all the way to their base, despite the fact that kills didn't matter in this mode. What matters was how well you controlled the obelisk. 1 person in one lane, another person in the other and your team rotates between the two, occasionally applying pressure to the third.
    It went even deeper than that.

    As I pointed out somewhere earlier, nobody gave a damn about minions. I think they had some point value in Dominion as well (not sure on this one anyway, but I think they had), but even putting that to the side, they are, as in every other game mode as well, your most important and reliable source of income in terms of exp and gold. People ignored this factor completly.

    As I said, you could sit there defening your obelisk, farm your waves while having a hand in your pants at somehow wonder how the entire rest of the players in the game ended up falling behind multiple levels.

    What can be considered a true flaw to the map may be the way minion pathing worked in that map (or the fact that they were there in the first place). You could not reach the enemy minions realisticly because you have to enter the sand giant territory where they would battle the giant + other minions, but this would pretty much mean diving an enemy tower that is defended by 1-3 enemy gods not for a chance of getting to kill but just to get minions.

    The alternative scenario is hoping that your enemy kills your minions under the coloss and let them come out to take care of you, but even that would put you in a heavily dangerous position in that your enemy could use this opportunity for going after you in return.

    Putting this design flaw/difficulty aside, the fact that people still did not/do not understand the importance of minions and the value they hold is a huge problem of the community. It is true in arena as well, sure, you get your token mage taking care of them every now and them, but to this day, there are so many players that do not know that killing minions goes for points, that pushing them into the portal goes for points and that being around when they die, especially early on, is crucial when it comes to keeping yourself in the game exp wise.

    I say especially early on because in arena, reaching level 5 before your enemies do or rather, having the god with the most impactful ultimate(s) reach 5 asap is elementary for winning the first teamfight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PapaRodin View Post
    It went even deeper than that.

    As I pointed out somewhere earlier, nobody gave a damn about minions. I think they had some point value in Dominion as well (not sure on this one anyway, but I think they had), but even putting that to the side, they are, as in every other game mode as well, your most important and reliable source of income in terms of exp and gold. People ignored this factor completly.

    As I said, you could sit there defening your obelisk, farm your waves while having a hand in your pants at somehow wonder how the entire rest of the players in the game ended up falling behind multiple levels.

    What can be considered a true flaw to the map may be the way minion pathing worked in that map (or the fact that they were there in the first place). You could not reach the enemy minions realisticly because you have to enter the sand giant territory where they would battle the giant + other minions, but this would pretty much mean diving an enemy tower that is defended by 1-3 enemy gods not for a chance of getting to kill but just to get minions.

    The alternative scenario is hoping that your enemy kills your minions under the coloss and let them come out to take care of you, but even that would put you in a heavily dangerous position in that your enemy could use this opportunity for going after you in return.

    Putting this design flaw/difficulty aside, the fact that people still did not/do not understand the importance of minions and the value they hold is a huge problem of the community. It is true in arena as well, sure, you get your token mage taking care of them every now and them, but to this day, there are so many players that do not know that killing minions goes for points, that pushing them into the portal goes for points and that being around when they die, especially early on, is crucial when it comes to keeping yourself in the game exp wise.

    I say especially early on because in arena, reaching level 5 before your enemies do or rather, having the god with the most impactful ultimate(s) reach 5 asap is elementary for winning the first teamfight.
    They actually didn't have point value I'm quite sure of that, I had a match where my team won without losing a single point. We kept those obelisks locked down!

    I personally never let the enemy minions get close to the obelisk, not for the reason you speak of though. To me the minions signified a opening in your defenses, a opening we just couldn't afford honestly. If the obelisk is focusing those minions that literally leaves both it and you open for a wide variety of attacks, and depending on the location of your team and who your enemy was, the obelisk would be lost before the minion wave is even dead.

    God I miss that mode!

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