Page 13 of 13 FirstFirst ... 3 11 12 13
Results 121 to 130 of 130

Thread: Neith and the bloat.

  1. #121
    Member Follower shaye15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    218
    7
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 523
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points Veteran
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeickMith View Post
    Except it can miss, because it can be bodyblocked. Both the damage and the stun can be 'blocked' by abilities that provide immunity to one or the other (or both), see: Chang'e, Ravana, Sol, etc. Her ult is also highly telegraphed, and has travel time. There's little to no excuse to get hit by it in solo lane in such a way that you would die either from it or from your solo counterpart's follow up (see the arrows on the ground indicating she's targetting you? back off). It also roots her and removes vision of her surroundings, so it requires her to either have based or retreated (given up lane presence) or be a sitting duck in her lane. If you're low enough to get killed due to a Neith ult, you're just as likely to have been picked off by Nu Wa, Athena, Apollo, Thor, Thanatos, or really any rotation into your lane.

    Being able to remove weaves is stupid, because she has no control over their placement and they only spawn when an enemy dies. I presume we're talking about death weaves here because, as I mentioned before, she can only lay one down herself (backflip) at a time, so she's not "zoning" you with that one for 60s unless you're literally not making her backflip for that entire time. Also, as mentioned before, her 1 and 2 are tuned around her ability to use them on weaves, so any nerf to her weaves would require buffs to her 1 and 2. Is that what you want?
    You ask false question and the use faulty logic.

    1) I know the downfalls of her ult and have already acknowledged my bias. You're auguring just to do so sake.

    2) Being able to unsafely remove her weaves is not "stupid" just because you say it is. Her weaves give her amazing zoning and can't be countered. A small counter that is very dangerous simply gives counter play to her early game.

    Again I am requesting the thread to be closed. All relevant points have been made go make another thread if you wish to continue.

  2. #122
    Member Worshipper
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    405
    4
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 644
    Achievements:
    Repped! Third Class 1000 Experience Points 1 year registered
    Rep Power
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by shaye15 View Post
    You ask false question and the use faulty logic.

    1) I know the downfalls of her ult and have already acknowledged my bias. You're auguring just to do so sake.

    2) Being able to unsafely remove her weaves is not "stupid" just because you say it is. Her weaves give her amazing zoning and can't be countered. A small counter that is very dangerous simply gives counter play to her early game.

    Again I am requesting the thread to be closed. All relevant points have been made go make another thread if you wish to continue.
    All relevant points have been made but you refuse to counter them.

    Her weaves do not give 'amazing' zoning because she can only control where one of them is placed, and it is removed/replaced when she uses her backflip again. The placement and even the existence of other weaves are almost entirely out of her control. As such, they are countered by (1) not dying, (2) if you're going to die, do so outside of the middle of the lane to limit weave radius, (3) forcing her to backflip and thus gain unfavorable weave placement, and (4) not standing in range of weaves when her 15s cooldown Spirit Arrow (her primary lane clear) is off cooldown.

    If you acknowledge your (bad) bias on her ult, you concede the argument.

  3. #123
    Member Follower shaye15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    218
    7
    Level completed: 42%, Points required for next Level: 523
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points Veteran
    Rep Power
    0
    Being able to control a large AOE that doubles damage, clears wave at level 2, roots allowing for additional autos and minion poke, is amazing zoning and control.

    In an ideal situation you're responses would be great. However, in practice, due to her weaves she will clear faster than you with very little effort. Neith's simplicity makes her a very powerful god in this game and simply giving a counter to her simplicity in a form of being able to remove a weave could be a good change for the god. Her spirit arrow already has 90% scaling and a root and pierces, there will be no need to buff that any more even if you could counter the weave.

    Ability Type: Projectile
    Damage: 90 / 155 / 220 / 285 / 350 (+90% of your physical power)
    Damage (Maximum): 180 / 310 / 440 / 570 / 700 (+180% of your physical power)
    Root: 1.2 / 1.4 / 1.6 / 1.8 / 2s
    Cost: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80
    Cooldown: 15s

    This is Spirit Arrow. It already has a good root relatively low cost, no punishment for piercing and high damage and scaling. She is a caster ADC and it makes since for her abilities to do so much, the problem comes due to the fact that she is an ADC. She still hits hard with autos and ridiculously hard and safely with abilities. Let's compare this with another god and his full passive.


    Ability Type: Projectile
    Damage: 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+90% of your physical power)
    Damage (Two Hits): 100 / 160 / 220 / 280 / 340 (+180% of your physical power)
    Maximum Damage: 116 / 185.6 / 255.2 / 324.8 / 394.4 (+208.8% of your physical power)
    Slow: 20%
    Detonation Duration: 3s
    Radius: 20
    Cost: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90
    Cooldown: 10s

    This is Heartbomb. It does not go through minions, so it's not good for clear. It has a detonate time so it's unreliable. It hits hard but not nearly as hard as Neith with her passive. As we all know Cupid's early game clear is terrible and this is why.

    Ability Type: Line
    Damage: 90 / 155 / 220 / 285 / 350 (+80% of your physical power)
    Stun Duration: 1.1 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 / 1.5s
    Cost: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110
    Cooldown: 12s

    This is impale It doesn't scale as high and is dependent on a wall for full potential. His passive does not affect this ability and the cost is higher.

    As you can see, other caster ADC's just don't have the control due to their passive and extreme burst that neith has complimented with extreme safety. I could go into the rest of her bloated kit but I am simply talking about her passive. Yes you can "avoid the weave" but that is called...zoning and she is very good at that. Taking a small amount of zoning away from her will make her a little less safe while still being able to punish those who attempt to clear a weave at a bad time.


    2) Saying my bias is "bad" is just being a jerk. This game prided itself on skillshots and me wanting them to stick to that is not "bad." Also, I conceded this argument a while ago anyways.

    3) Stating "You refuse to counter them" is simply not acknowledging what I have stated previously.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Prestigious HawkboyJr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,309
    14
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 1,129
    Achievements:
    Reputation Distributor Full Profile! 1 year registered Repped! First Class 10000 Experience Points
    Rep Power
    11
    • Cupid needs to land a handful of basic attacks to stack his passive, while Neith requires burning her escape and having one or more players standing directly on top of the weave for her to deal this kind of damage to gods. Additionally you ignore the stun on his Heartbomb, a big part of why the ability is great.
    • Anhur’s Impale actually does proc his passive, which offers an additional 15 penetrations. You ignore the knock-back on this skill, offering much more control than Neith’s Spirit Arrow.


    These two gods also both scale better with basic attacks than Neith. The information you give is incomplete and, as such, comes across as dishonest. There is no god that can be easily compared to Neith at this point, as all but Chiron scale better with basic attacks and she and Chiron bring very different things to the table, Neith bringing primarily damage and zone control, while Chiron brings utility, mobility and crowd control immunity (though both bring excellent lane pressure).

  5. #125
    Member Worshipper
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    405
    4
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 644
    Achievements:
    Repped! Third Class 1000 Experience Points 1 year registered
    Rep Power
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by shaye15 View Post
    Being able to control a large AOE that doubles damage, clears wave at level 2, roots allowing for additional autos and minion poke, is amazing zoning and control.

    In an ideal situation you're responses would be great. However, in practice, due to her weaves she will clear faster than you with very little effort. Neith's simplicity makes her a very powerful god in this game and simply giving a counter to her simplicity in a form of being able to remove a weave could be a good change for the god. Her spirit arrow already has 90% scaling and a root and pierces, there will be no need to buff that any more even if you could counter the weave.

    Ability Type: Projectile
    Damage: 90 / 155 / 220 / 285 / 350 (+90% of your physical power)
    Damage (Maximum): 180 / 310 / 440 / 570 / 700 (+180% of your physical power)
    Root: 1.2 / 1.4 / 1.6 / 1.8 / 2s
    Cost: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80
    Cooldown: 15s

    This is Spirit Arrow. It already has a good root relatively low cost, no punishment for piercing and high damage and scaling. She is a caster ADC and it makes since for her abilities to do so much, the problem comes due to the fact that she is an ADC. She still hits hard with autos and ridiculously hard and safely with abilities. Let's compare this with another god and his full passive.


    Ability Type: Projectile
    Damage: 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+90% of your physical power)
    Damage (Two Hits): 100 / 160 / 220 / 280 / 340 (+180% of your physical power)
    Maximum Damage: 116 / 185.6 / 255.2 / 324.8 / 394.4 (+208.8% of your physical power)
    Slow: 20%
    Detonation Duration: 3s
    Radius: 20
    Cost: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90
    Cooldown: 10s

    This is Heartbomb. It does not go through minions, so it's not good for clear. It has a detonate time so it's unreliable. It hits hard but not nearly as hard as Neith with her passive. As we all know Cupid's early game clear is terrible and this is why.

    Ability Type: Line
    Damage: 90 / 155 / 220 / 285 / 350 (+80% of your physical power)
    Stun Duration: 1.1 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 / 1.5s
    Cost: 70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 110
    Cooldown: 12s

    This is impale It doesn't scale as high and is dependent on a wall for full potential. His passive does not affect this ability and the cost is higher.

    As you can see, other caster ADC's just don't have the control due to their passive and extreme burst that neith has complimented with extreme safety. I could go into the rest of her bloated kit but I am simply talking about her passive. Yes you can "avoid the weave" but that is called...zoning and she is very good at that. Taking a small amount of zoning away from her will make her a little less safe while still being able to punish those who attempt to clear a weave at a bad time.


    2) Saying my bias is "bad" is just being a jerk. This game prided itself on skillshots and me wanting them to stick to that is not "bad." Also, I conceded this argument a while ago anyways.

    3) Stating "You refuse to counter them" is simply not acknowledging what I have stated previously.
    How on earth are you playing against Neiths that they are able to waste their backflips by placing offensive weaves that are then detonated to clear a minion wave?

    You say "in practice" but this just isn't the case, ever, unless you're just playing really, really badly and this breaks down to the aforementioned "It killed me, therefore nerf."

  6. #126
    Senior Member Prestigious EpicWinnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Lighting it up with Ra.
    Posts
    3,263
    15
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 1,018
    Achievements:
    Full Profile! Tagger Third Class Repped! Second Class Conversation Starter Reputation Distributor
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by HawkboyJr View Post
    • Cupid needs to land a handful of basic attacks to stack his passive, while Neith requires burning her escape and having one or more players standing directly on top of the weave for her to deal this kind of damage to gods. Additionally you ignore the stun on his Heartbomb, a big part of why the ability is great.
    • Anhur’s Impale actually does proc his passive, which offers an additional 15 penetrations. You ignore the knock-back on this skill, offering much more control than Neith’s Spirit Arrow.


    These two gods also both scale better with basic attacks than Neith. The information you give is incomplete and, as such, comes across as dishonest. There is no god that can be easily compared to Neith at this point, as all but Chiron scale better with basic attacks and she and Chiron bring very different things to the table, Neith bringing primarily damage and zone control, while Chiron brings utility, mobility and crowd control immunity (though both bring excellent lane pressure).
    If Impale is such a better form of control than Spirit Arrow, why is Anhur not a priority pick/ban in higher level play?
    "I lost to it, so it must be broken" - Every complaint thread ever.

    Concept for The Hydra, Greek Serpentine Monster:
    http://forums.smitegame.com/showthre...ror-of-Lernaea

    Concept for Yum Kaax, Mayan God of the Wild:
    http://forums.smitegame.com/showthre...od-of-the-Wild

    Concept for Krishna, Dashvatara:
    http://forums.smitegame.com/showthre...atar-of-Vishnu

  7. #127
    Senior Member Prestigious HawkboyJr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,309
    14
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 1,129
    Achievements:
    Reputation Distributor Full Profile! 1 year registered Repped! First Class 10000 Experience Points
    Rep Power
    11
    Because his clear isn't as strong and he lacks her global ultimate. As a result, to justify Anhur over Neith, other than his slightly better scaling (relevant in Neith/Anhur match-ups, though he'll still lose to most other hunters in the late game) you need to take advantage of his superior burst and control to turn the lane into a kill lane, something most professionals aren't comfortable with, as misplaying aggressively will often cost you much more than misplaying defensively. Some of the few great aggressive ADCs in competitive Smite, like Reels and Zapman, we haven't seen in play yet this year, therefore it's understandable that we haven't seen many aggressive ADCs, like Ullr and Anhur, yet this year.

  8. #128
    Senior Member Prestigious EpicWinnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Lighting it up with Ra.
    Posts
    3,263
    15
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 1,018
    Achievements:
    Full Profile! Tagger Third Class Repped! Second Class Conversation Starter Reputation Distributor
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by HawkboyJr View Post
    Because his clear isn't as strong and he lacks her global ultimate. As a result, to justify Anhur over Neith, other than his slightly better scaling (relevant in Neith/Anhur match-ups, though he'll still lose to most other hunters in the late game) you need to take advantage of his superior burst and control to turn the lane into a kill lane, something most professionals aren't comfortable with, as misplaying aggressively will often cost you much more than misplaying defensively. Some of the few great aggressive ADCs in competitive Smite, like Reels and Zapman, we haven't seen in play yet this year, therefore it's understandable that we haven't seen many aggressive ADCs, like Ullr and Anhur, yet this year.
    With the emphasis of hunters being more team-fight oriented this season, with mages rising to dominance (again) thanks to Doom Orb, do you think we'll be seeing possibly more Cupid?
    "I lost to it, so it must be broken" - Every complaint thread ever.

    Concept for The Hydra, Greek Serpentine Monster:
    http://forums.smitegame.com/showthre...ror-of-Lernaea

    Concept for Yum Kaax, Mayan God of the Wild:
    http://forums.smitegame.com/showthre...od-of-the-Wild

    Concept for Krishna, Dashvatara:
    http://forums.smitegame.com/showthre...atar-of-Vishnu

  9. #129
    Senior Member Prestigious HawkboyJr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,309
    14
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 1,129
    Achievements:
    Reputation Distributor Full Profile! 1 year registered Repped! First Class 10000 Experience Points
    Rep Power
    11
    The problem with Cupid, to me, has always been his inability to clear the wave with any kind of speed or consistency. He's a great lane bully, given an empty lane, but it's very hard to justify him over other great team fight hunters, like Xbalanque and Hou Yi, both of whom have similar push and team fight presence, but scale much better into the late game. With that said, with the prevalence of Odin recently and Cupid's historic synergy with Odin, I would not be surprised for him to see at least some niche use, though unless Xbalanque rose back into popularity I still wouldn't expect to see him on a regular basis.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Prestigious EpicWinnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Lighting it up with Ra.
    Posts
    3,263
    15
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 1,018
    Achievements:
    Full Profile! Tagger Third Class Repped! Second Class Conversation Starter Reputation Distributor
    Rep Power
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by HawkboyJr View Post
    The problem with Cupid, to me, has always been his inability to clear the wave with any kind of speed or consistency. He's a great lane bully, given an empty lane, but it's very hard to justify him over other great team fight hunters, like Xbalanque and Hou Yi, both of whom have similar push and team fight presence, but scale much better into the late game. With that said, with the prevalence of Odin recently and Cupid's historic synergy with Odin, I would not be surprised for him to see at least some niche use, though unless Xbalanque rose back into popularity I still wouldn't expect to see him on a regular basis.
    Couldn't you pair Cupid with a lane dominant support, like Khepri, Ymir, or Athena who are known for their good pushing ability?
    "I lost to it, so it must be broken" - Every complaint thread ever.

    Concept for The Hydra, Greek Serpentine Monster:
    http://forums.smitegame.com/showthre...ror-of-Lernaea

    Concept for Yum Kaax, Mayan God of the Wild:
    http://forums.smitegame.com/showthre...od-of-the-Wild

    Concept for Krishna, Dashvatara:
    http://forums.smitegame.com/showthre...atar-of-Vishnu

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •