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Thread: The Small Definitive Penetration Guide [Updated 3/28/17]

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    Super Moderator Prestigious KingScuba's Avatar
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    The Small Definitive Penetration Guide [Updated 3/28/17]

    Just going to put this up, since I see this question pop up often enough, so I'll simply answer it here.

    "When is Obsidian Shard/Titans Bane better than Spear of the Magus/Execution and Vice Versa"

    A fast term to learn

    DOT : Damage over Time
    Burst : A single attack that deals all damage at once
    AA : Auto Attacks (also known as Basic Attacks)
    Objective : Tower, Phoenix, or Titan


    So let's review the word of thoth real quick.

    Percentage Penetration DOES NOT increase your penetration by that amount, and it is a common misconception. If you have 33% penetration and 15 flat, you won’t just have 20 flat pen.

    There is also a stat known as damage reduction. This comes from items such as Spirit Robe and is
    also attached to some gods’ abilities. Damage reduction is more effectively known as ‘true armour’.
    Basically, it reduces the damage you take by that amount, regardless of the amount of protections
    you have, and this damage reduction can’t be penetrated.

    This type of damage reduction comes in % and flat(Mark of the Vanguard). The flat reduction is applied post-mitigation. The order of Penetration and Reduction is important, as changing the order can result in quite different armour numbers.

    The order in which they are applied is:

    1. % Armour Reduction

    2. Flat Armour Reduction

    3. % Armour Penetration

    4. Flat Penetration

    An example of this would be: An enemy has 300 Physical Protection, with no additional damage mitigation modifiers (Bulwark etc.). You have The Executioner, Brawler’s Beatstick

    and Titan’s Bane. After 3 stacks of Executioner, the enemy armour would be

    (300∗0.76)– 18=210

    From this, Percentage Penetration is then applied.

    210 ∗ 0.67(1−0.33) = 140.7

    After taking off flat Penetration, we are left with

    140.7 – 20 = 120.7
    .
    Your attacks would be dealing damage as if the enemy had 125.7 armour; while an ally who does not have any Physical Penetration would be dealing damage as if the enemy had 210 armour. After the Executioner debuff wears off the armour value would go back to 300. Reduction applies before Penetration, so be aware that Reduction will make % Pen less valuable, as you are then negating a % of a smaller amount. 50% of 30 is a lot smaller than 50% of 325.

    So, moving on.


    To understand which item will benefit you more, you need to understand basic build theory and what your purpose is.


    The first question you need to ask yourself as a Magical God

    "Is my god primarily DOT, AA, or Burst based? (I.E Anubis vs Janus)"

    If you're DOT based (Anubis), then Spear of the magus is a better item for you.
    If you're Auto Attack Based, then Demonic Grip is a good item to pick up, but Spear is also viable because AA is also DOT based.
    If you're Burst based (Janus), then Obsidian Shard is better

    The first question you need to ask yourself as a Physical god

    As it stands, Executioner is kind of a bad item for gods who want any kind of tower push, crit damage, or abilitiy damage. With no flat penetration, and a trade off of attack speed with a 3 hit wind up, you'll lose out on damage for 3 hits. (A squishy will usually die after 3 to 5 hits late game)

    The only time you could pick up Executioner is if you're an AA reliant warrior, like Osiris, so you can allow your physical gods to do more damage to your target. And even then, you're losing power on all of your abilities, and won't get to the full power until your 4th swing. Add to that, % pen stats don't stack.

    If you have a god with 150 defense (A good number for a full on tank), you have an executioner, and your other teammates have titans, the calculation looks like this :

    (150 * 36%)33% = 64 Protections, It does not go 150 * 69% = 47 Protections. This is only 17 points of defense taken off. Add to that, your damage doesn't get the boost of titans. So you're looking at 150 * 36% = 96 Defense after 4 swings, while a titans will bring the enemy to 100 defense on all your swings and abilities.

    Almost All physical gods should grab titans bane. 33% on all hits/abilities is way better than 36% after 3 swings.


    Here's the caveat though.

    Ask yourself this on both gods


    "Am I focusing on kills or taking objectives primarily?"

    If the answer is kills, then follow the above advice.
    If the answer is objectives, IGNORE the above logic. Titans bane or Obsidian shard will allow you to melt objectives MUCH faster than any other item.

    The reason behind this is that Towers and Phoenixes are NOT affected by stacking items.


    Moving on. There's yet another question to ask yourself as a physical god.

    "Is my god early, mid, or late game based?"

    Generally, early and mid game gods (for example, Thanatos and bastet) Scale extremely well early game, but fall off hard late game.

    This means that these gods require you to change your build late game, much as an ADC does. Early game, A jotunns and a titans bane might be quite nice for these 2 gods, but late game, AA is way stronger. So it might actually be better to switch from abilities to AA late game by selling off and buying different items, or buying items in such a way that you can transition easier into an AA based character late game from an Ability based god Early game.

    About Ichaival, Silverbranch, Stone Cutter Sword, and Spear of Desolation

    Ichaival and Silverbranch are amazing items early game for AA reliant gods, but fall off hard late game. Sell these items off after you sell your starter item. Do not build both of these items. It is not worth it 99% of the time. Get Ichaival against physical gods, and Silverbranch against magic gods.

    Stone cutter sword is only really good after you build your penetration item. This should be reserved for your 5th item or beyond.

    Spear of Desolation is fairly expensive, so it's not particularly good early game, however it's great for mid and late game. This item fits well into your 3rd item slot and beyond.

    About Brawlers Beatstick and Divine Ruin

    Short and simple, if you're facing a god with good healing (Herc, Aphro, Hel, Chaac, etc) GET. THIS. ITEM. EARLY. F*** your build. F*** your power curve. Get this Item ASAP. If you're fighting a healer, and you don't have this item, you're basically allowing their HP pool to double during a fight, and if you're letting them sustain you're allowing them to bully you for the rest of the game.


    Finally, one of the best images ever made concerning smite.

    Last edited by KingScuba; 04-26-2017 at 03:00 PM.
    Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios. Also I will not be able to contest your in-game ban.

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    this need sticky
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    Banned Prestigious Zelvios's Avatar
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    Thanks, was trying to point this out on another thread. DOT abilities = Spear of the Magus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelvios View Post
    Thanks, was trying to point this out on another thread. DOT abilities = Spear of the Magus.
    Like Poseidon.

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    Super Moderator Prestigious KingScuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLethalCorgi View Post
    Like Poseidon.
    poseidon can actually make use of demonic, thanks to his 2nd ability.
    Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios. Also I will not be able to contest your in-game ban.

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    So this is why people say Freya can shred the best because demonic grip plus spear? Would it be 41% reductiom plus 50 flat pen after three basics powered by her 1/2? Then shoe of the magi adding another ten pen? That would be doing true damage everyone except tanks right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Njt9497 View Post
    So this is why people say Freya can shred the best because demonic grip plus spear? Would it be 41% reductiom plus 50 flat pen after three basics powered by her 1/2? Then shoe of the magi adding another ten pen? That would be doing true damage everyone except tanks right?
    yeah pretty much
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    Senior Member Honoured LoudAndAnnoying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingScuba View Post
    If you're Auto Attack Based, then Demonic Grip is a good item to pick up, but Spear is also viable because AA is also DOT based.
    This makes it sound like AAs apply spear, which they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingScuba View Post
    poseidon can actually make use of demonic, thanks to his 2nd ability.
    Ya but the extra shots apply spear procs. It is still good to get the attack speed and defense shred with that stim. You can use both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Njt9497 View Post
    So this is why people say Freya can shred the best because demonic grip plus spear? Would it be 41% reductiom plus 50 flat pen after three basics powered by her 1/2? Then shoe of the magi adding another ten pen? That would be doing true damage everyone except tanks right?
    Yes, some other gods can do it too though, Pos, Sol, and Ao. Sol's 2 will apply both spear ticks, though she does have a bit more trouble keeping it on long term.
    They say the children are the future; when you look at a MOBA community, you know the future will be bleak.

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    Member Worshipper LoveTheTea's Avatar
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    Thank you, I learnt a lot from this!
    "If the ocean can calm itself, so can you. We are both salt water mixed with air."

    I sure do love the T.

    Casual player trying to find my feet.

    I don't play conquest (yet). So please stop replying to me with tips for conquest! Thanks!
    Gods I mostly play: Aphrodite, Kukulkan, Sol, Medusa, Artemis, Bastet and I try to play Hel as she is my favourite god... but I'm terrible with her...
    I am only on the forums Monday - Thursday so please be patient with me!

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    Senior Member Honoured PrinceRaven's Avatar
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    I really wouldn't recommend Obsidian Shard on Janus considering you can fully stack Spear with Threshold into Portal before hitting a target with Unstable Vortex.
    Quote Originally Posted by MTGEl33t View Post
    Listen to PrinceRaven, he seems to know what he's talking about most of the time.

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