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Thread: Why balancing is sometimes hard

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    Why balancing is sometimes hard



    I've been playing smite for 2 years, been through all of the balancing changes, and dragged myself to masters just watching how things were handled.

    Marketing wise, you need to attract new players in the best possible way you can, even more so for smite since there are similar games with a longer track record who have built a strong player base (DOTA, LoL).

    Smite did that in 2015. To attract new players you naturally want to make a god where the kit is simple and easy to use, where anyone and everyone has the fair chance to become "good" with the god in fairly short amount of time. In 2015 we arguably got some of the easiest gods ever released in smite, from the back of my head Sol and Bellona come to mind.

    These gods are fun but if going back to the triangle I put together, both are for the most parteasy to play and fair to the average player which make them imbalanced at pro level play.

    Now again for the sake of the argument and the point I'm trying to show, let's look at Loki. To a lot of players, loki may seem imbalanced because people may see him as a "OHKO" god, but simply put he's a pubstomper and that's what they do. Going to the triangle Loki iseasy to play and balanced at a pro level which again, leaves the average players out of the equation which is unfortunate but that's what it is.

    As a company it's plain impossible to please everyone, some games even purposely change the "meta" at times to favor a certain audience instead of it having it be out "balance changes" because at the end of the day, you need to try and keep your player base happy.


    Let's look again at a couple of gods that I think are balanced or close to it, Ao Kuang and Awilix.

    Ao Kuang to me was very refreshing, he was balanced at a pro level and fair to the average player, so going back to the triangle, he should be hard to play and he was . To many at first they thought he wasn't the greatest, we spent months building him different ways, we had the AA build, tank, and the famous one shot build shown in a pro match against an Agni.

    Awilix falls in the same boat, balanced at a pro level and fair to the public because she isn't the easy god to use in most cases as there's so much you can do with her.

    Back to Bellona and Sol...

    There's just a lot to say here, the most imbalanced mix is when it's fair to the average player and easy to play because that leaves too much room for things to be abused at higher level play, case and point Sol and Bellona.
    You cannot change bellonas kit at this point, bellona is our bellona so the only thing left to do is make small tweaks to her each time they can in moderation.

    Sol is different breed however, she needs a rekit I expressed my ideas in a previous post here
    Quote Originally Posted by KyleMG View Post
    Nerf her 2, take away the demonic grip and poly proc ability.

    Buff her passive to make it compete with other magical ADCs kits like Freya and Chronos. Make it so the buff to atk power isnt just at 100% heat but on a a growth level at something like .3% basic atk dmg for every % heat.

    Completely rework her ulti, make it an actual Supernova, have it make about a Ymir Ults range or higher. Have it do a bit of dmg (300 or so base max with around +50%, it's a utility ult), blind and slow people in the radius, has a 1 sec windup, the more heat you have the longer the blind last, max of 2 seconds. Oh, and of course give it some cool effects such as


    Option 1: Nerf her 2 and rework the rest of her kit (which I would rather since her ult and 1 are a joke)

    Option 2: Solely rework her 2


    No matter what you do to sol, her 2 needs to go but at the current state of her kit you can't actually nerf it without making her useless.
    So yes, having those two sides of the triangle filled is when most problems occur which is what I hope Hi-Rez plans to avoid in the future.

    You can say "easy to play" is subjective but for the most part it's not, especially in a marketing aspect so don't make that a reason to completely disregard what I'm trying to say. This isn't the perfect how2balance equation for the quite large majority of the time, this is how it works. I just want to show you that balancing something isn't just so cut and dry as people may seem like "nerf sols 2", you can't do that because sometimes the slightest change can throw everything out of balance.

    Helping balance this game for all players would be a dream of mine, as there's a lot you have to think about and to me that's the fun part. I just hope in the future Hi-Rez will focus one creating more "hard to play" or at least harder gods to appease the masses

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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleMG View Post
    I just want to show you that balancing something isn't just so cut and dry as people may seem like "nerf sols 2", you can't do that because sometimes the slightest change can throw everything out of balance.
    Balancing would be better if there weren't politics involved.

    Unfortunately, there are other variables than just "balancing the game" when it comes to kit changes.

    Also, I'm at the belief that the longer the god stays broken or way too strong, the harsher the nerf and they should basically stay in trash tier for the length of time they were broken before being fixed to a balanced state.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImAeternalis View Post
    Have you even played Chang'e before? Because clearly you haven't.
    14 games vs my Rank 10. No, I clearly haven't played Chang'e before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleMG View Post
    I just hope in the future Hi-Rez will focus one creating more "hard to play" or at least harder gods to appease the masses
    i hope that too
    *Disclaimer: I am a volunteer moderator. I work on best judgement and do not speak on behalf of Hi-Rez Studios.*

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    This is how threads of this nature should be done. Nice ideas, well thought out, good reasoning and logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RainbowSplat View Post
    i hope that too
    They did, they gave us Nox who is hard to play and really good but is hardly ever seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KyleMG View Post


    I've been playing smite for 2 years, been through all of the balancing changes, and dragged myself to masters just watching how things were handled.

    Marketing wise, you need to attract new players in the best possible way you can, even more so for smite since there are similar games with a longer track record who have built a strong player base (DOTA, LoL).

    Smite did that in 2015. To attract new players you naturally want to make a god where the kit is simple and easy to use, where anyone and everyone has the fair chance to become "good" with the god in fairly short amount of time. In 2015 we arguably got some of the easiest gods ever released in smite, from the back of my head Sol and Bellona come to mind.

    These gods are fun but if going back to the triangle I put together, both are for the most parteasy to play and fair to the average player which make them imbalanced at pro level play.

    Now again for the sake of the argument and the point I'm trying to show, let's look at Loki. To a lot of players, loki may seem imbalanced because people may see him as a "OHKO" god, but simply put he's a pubstomper and that's what they do. Going to the triangle Loki iseasy to play and balanced at a pro level which again, leaves the average players out of the equation which is unfortunate but that's what it is.

    As a company it's plain impossible to please everyone, some games even purposely change the "meta" at times to favor a certain audience instead of it having it be out "balance changes" because at the end of the day, you need to try and keep your player base happy.


    Let's look again at a couple of gods that I think are balanced or close to it, Ao Kuang and Awilix.

    Ao Kuang to me was very refreshing, he was balanced at a pro level and fair to the average player, so going back to the triangle, he should be hard to play and he was . To many at first they thought he wasn't the greatest, we spent months building him different ways, we had the AA build, tank, and the famous one shot build shown in a pro match against an Agni.

    Awilix falls in the same boat, balanced at a pro level and fair to the public because she isn't the easy god to use in most cases as there's so much you can do with her.

    Back to Bellona and Sol...

    There's just a lot to say here, the most imbalanced mix is when it's fair to the average player and easy to play because that leaves too much room for things to be abused at higher level play, case and point Sol and Bellona.
    You cannot change bellonas kit at this point, bellona is our bellona so the only thing left to do is make small tweaks to her each time they can in moderation.

    Sol is different breed however, she needs a rekit I expressed my ideas in a previous post here


    So yes, having those two sides of the triangle filled is when most problems occur which is what I hope Hi-Rez plans to avoid in the future.

    You can say "easy to play" is subjective but for the most part it's not, especially in a marketing aspect so don't make that a reason to completely disregard what I'm trying to say. This isn't the perfect how2balance equation for the quite large majority of the time, this is how it works. I just want to show you that balancing something isn't just so cut and dry as people may seem like "nerf sols 2", you can't do that because sometimes the slightest change can throw everything out of balance.

    Helping balance this game for all players would be a dream of mine, as there's a lot you have to think about and to me that's the fun part. I just hope in the future Hi-Rez will focus one creating more "hard to play" or at least harder gods to appease the masses


    Spaced things out so I could actually read it. With the power of spacing walls of text come great responsibility!

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    And so totally pointless when I can't get a single game out of 20 where one side or the other doesn't outkill the other side by 4 to 1 or better.

    FIX MATCHMAKING

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack0001 View Post
    And so totally pointless when I can't get a single game out of 20 where one side or the other doesn't outkill the other side by 4 to 1 or better.

    FIX MATCHMAKING
    Most MM issues are in the players head, thinking they're better they're better than their team as a whole. I honestly can't say that the MM system is perfect but it's certainly not as bad as people love to make it out to be, it's just an excuse for them losing a game to a large majority.

    Nonetheless, that's not the point of this thread, but feel free to make another one regarding that if it's an issue for you.

  9. #9
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    Just gonna apologize ahead of time, I know many of you already know this stuff, but what I mention and will try to explain here is an important concept that everyone really should understand, so this is mainly just aimed at the people who don't know already.

    I've been playing the game since mid beta (not that it matters, so I hope that no one takes it as though i'm trying to make my opinion sound superior to others), and honestly, god balance is just a dial the developers use to adjust how strong a specific kit is. I am far less concerned with what gods are "Flavor of the month" picks, and way more focused on the god design part. Balance and design are not the same thing (just wanted to throw that out there in case anyone didn't know).

    If a god is released and is unbalanced (either underpowered or overpowered in the role it is supposed to fill), but has next level kit design, I would be someone who would call for a revamp immediately (no minor buffs or nerfs, I mean redesign the entire kit). The reason is because from that point forward, every time a god comes out of that same role will have his/her kit will be compared to that of the previously mentioned god, and then suddenly every god from that point forward has to have at least meet the bar that has just raised, AKA Power Creep.

    Just to recap, power creep does not happen when gods are buffed and nerfed. It happens when a god is released who has a kit that is just out right superior to other gods of the same role.

    So why is power creep bad? Well, it's bad for a lot of reasons. Most noticeably, it makes all other gods of that role less desirable. Do you want the old high burst mage with minor utility and no escape, or do you want the new high burst mage with a more flexible kit, more utility and has an escape? The choice here is very obvious, your almost always going to pick the latter. Power creep also severely limits the design space that the developers have to work with, as mentioned above. If the new gods dont meet the new standard, there is a good chance that they are going to be less desirable generally.

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