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SpitefulOne
08-06-2015, 02:26 PM
Boots automatically diminish the number of purchase decisions the player makes by 1 (out of 6) and their design is about dragging out the laning phase (also making dieing early more punishing due to increased time to get to lane).

Suggestion #1: Baseline the movement speed from boots into each God's move speed. This speeds up the early game and opens up more possible item combinations.

Suggestion #2: Add smaller amounts of movement speed to many items so that a full 6 item build will have the standard amount of movement speed. This opens up more build options but would slow the game down as movement speed would no longer be an all or nothing stat.

RainbowSplat
08-06-2015, 03:35 PM
we need boots otherwise it feels so booring when u are that slow

SpitefulOne
08-06-2015, 06:08 PM
we need boots otherwise it feels so booring when u are that slow

Did you read neither suggestion? Your movement speed would end up the same as it is now with boots. There just wouldn't be 1 type of item that's mutually exclusive.

TigrisCallidus
08-06-2015, 06:10 PM
Well we still need boots as a itemchoice. There are several different boots, there is the choice WHEN to build boots and there is even the choice to not build boots.

There will be some "must have" items all the time removing 4 different possible must have items makes not more choices possible!

SpitefulOne
08-06-2015, 06:28 PM
Well we still need boots as a itemchoice. There are several different boots, there is the choice WHEN to build boots and there is even the choice to not build boots.

There will be some "must have" items all the time removing 4 different possible must have items makes not more choices possible!

You don't, at all.
They could baseline the current movement speed with boots into each God and boots limits 1 of your 6 items to 1 of 4 choices because they're the only thing with movement speed. If you make that a non-issue by either solution above then all of the other items are now an option. There would then be significantly more feasible builds.

Since you like math. 1 slot really only has 4 possibilities at the moment. That slot would then become all items - 4 possible options.

HoneyBadgersrUs
08-06-2015, 06:46 PM
You seem not to realize that boots are not needed at all in the current meta. Many, many builds don't use boots at all, which isn't unexpected considering boots really don't give anything besides the movement speed (especially on physical gods). Grabbing a combo of Winged Blade and Fatalis gives you more movement speed, a ton of attack speed, two fantastic passives, as well as a few additional stats. Boots aren't as pivotal as you make them out to be.

TigrisCallidus
08-06-2015, 06:54 PM
You don't, at all.
They could baseline the current movement speed with boots into each God and boots limits 1 of your 6 items to 1 of 4 choices because they're the only thing with movement speed. If you make that a non-issue by either solution above then all of the other items are now an option. There would then be significantly more feasible builds.

Since you like math. 1 slot really only has 4 possibilities at the moment. That slot would then become all items - 4 possible options.

Look there will be always some must have items, even if shoes are away. This is the case in every moba etc.

Now you needed boots yes, but there were 4 different ones to chose from.

Also depending on how important in that matchup movementspeed was you could get them sooner or later.

Without boots you will just (like ADCs allready do) build your maximum damage build in the optimal order.

Also some people could profit A LOT from the fact that they got boots sooner than other people, getting the extra movementspeed sooner, helping them to survive an early gank better, or to succeed in an early gank.

This possibility will not be there anymore with outlined movementspeed.

Also neither just increase basemovementspeed nor the increase of movementspeed will result to the state we have now!

Because in conquest a lot of games not all people get 6 items sometimes some people even only get 3.

And having movementspeed from the beginning makes roaming better from the beginning, making the earlygame less safe.

(Additional because of %increase of movementspeed of other items and diminishing returns it is also hard to get the exact same results we have now).


ADDITIONAL with 1 more slot, people would do MUCH MORE damage endgame! Meaning Hunters (and other Hypercarries) become EVEN MORE DANGEROUS. This means than the whole game would need to be balanced completely different again.

IOnlyPlaySupport
08-06-2015, 07:01 PM
Oh, sure, boots aren't important...

On PHYSICAL gods.
But hey, I'm sure playing games with only hunters, warriors, and assassins is appealing to SOME people.

Fuck the supports and fuck the mages, I guess.

SpitefulOne
08-06-2015, 07:27 PM
Look there will be always some must have items, even if shoes are away. This is the case in every moba etc.

Now you needed boots yes, but there were 4 different ones to chose from.

Also depending on how important in that matchup movementspeed was you could get them sooner or later.

Without boots you will just (like ADCs allready do) build your maximum damage build in the optimal order.

Also some people could profit A LOT from the fact that they got boots sooner than other people, getting the extra movementspeed sooner, helping them to survive an early gank better, or to succeed in an early gank.

This possibility will not be there anymore with outlined movementspeed.

Also neither just increase basemovementspeed nor the increase of movementspeed will result to the state we have now!

Because in conquest a lot of games not all people get 6 items sometimes some people even only get 3.

And having movementspeed from the beginning makes roaming better from the beginning, making the earlygame less safe.

(Additional because of %increase of movementspeed of other items and diminishing returns it is also hard to get the exact same results we have now).


ADDITIONAL with 1 more slot, people would do MUCH MORE damage endgame! Meaning Hunters (and other Hypercarries) become EVEN MORE DANGEROUS. This means than the whole game would need to be balanced completely different again.

Speeds up the start of the game, check.

Removes mandatory slot and improves build diversity, check.

Damage doesn't necessarily increase due to another slot for a defense or offense item and the suggestion was for Season 3 when they normally look at items anyway.

Thanks for supporting the argument even if you don't fully understand it.

McKnightrider
08-06-2015, 08:47 PM
If you got rid of boots I think everyone would just buy Fatalis.

RainbowSplat
08-06-2015, 09:28 PM
If you got rid of boots I think everyone would just buy Fatalis.

i would quit smite on first day if something like this would happen xD

BhastetKurza
08-06-2015, 09:33 PM
I want pen boots for phys classes so being an assassin can be easier.

ImAeternalis
08-06-2015, 09:34 PM
lol has aeons of boots. just make more options

TigrisCallidus
08-07-2015, 05:30 AM
Speeds up the start of the game, check.

Removes mandatory slot and improves build diversity, check.

Damage doesn't necessarily increase due to another slot for a defense or offense item and the suggestion was for Season 3 when they normally look at items anyway.

Thanks for supporting the argument even if you don't fully understand it.

Speeding up the start of the game is NOT something you do want to have!

Having a slower start makes the lanes safer, and lets have different speeds during the game making the gameplay feel different at the start and at the end.

It does not improve build diversity it would most likely decrease it! (You lack the choice on WHEN to build movementspeed, this means you will just go for best damage path and this is not something subjective, but objective calculateable!)

And of course ADCs would profit most from it since they profit the most from full build...

Having to look at items is one thing, but having to rebalance the whole game, because someone does not like shoes is something different...

Ichimarou
08-07-2015, 06:52 AM
If you got rid of boots I think everyone would just buy Fatalis.

And thats the other side of the coin. We remove boots so we dont always fit a slot with them....but then there is Fatalis. Seems like the same problem with a new colour to me.

Wylderman
08-07-2015, 07:08 AM
Just add a seventh item slot like they had in beta, now things will be OP, but balanced. I must have shield of regrowth on thanatos (seventh item slot), must have 7th item slot.

SpitefulOne
08-07-2015, 08:17 AM
Speeding up the start of the game is NOT something you do want to have!

Having a slower start makes the lanes safer, and lets have different speeds during the game making the gameplay feel different at the start and at the end.

It does not improve build diversity it would most likely decrease it! (You lack the choice on WHEN to build movementspeed, this means you will just go for best damage path and this is not something subjective, but objective calculateable!)

And of course ADCs would profit most from it since they profit the most from full build...

Having to look at items is one thing, but having to rebalance the whole game, because someone does not like shoes is something different...

Being able to escape faster makes lanes safer as well and death less punitive.

Your build order argument is the illusion of choice since you're not going to buy them late in the game.

This is a season 3 suggestion so other item changes would likely be made as well. No change is made in a vacuum. Part of the problem stems from the fact that most offensive items are just stat sticks with no real intangible bonus.

You wouldn't get to full 6 item build any faster. You would actually get there slower due to the increased overall cost since boots are a low cost item comparatively.

TenWildAbras
08-07-2015, 11:16 AM
I like the idea, but we don't need more slots to increase build diversity, we need more items. While the list slowly grows, there is still one big problem. Crit is practically mandatory for ADCs.

While I love my Neith power/pen build in truth, it doesn't compete with an AS crit build. It usually requires you being ahead or better than your ADC counter part. But as satisfying as out playing people is, the build is limited to a few people, namely Cupid and Neith, and there is too much risk to not just go the better build.

For mages, it's Tahuti, which isn't too bad since it's only one item, and as someone brilliantly pointed out, the choice isn't what, but when. Tahuti is a huge power power and practically mandatory, but when you build is a huge choice.


So.. I don't think removing boots while change anything, a new item from the meta will take it's place.

Goobis
08-08-2015, 07:33 PM
When Hirez tried to lower down boots in the Season 2 PTS, everyone just skipped them and bought Witch Blade or Winged Blade. Hell some support players just buy tier 1 shoes and rush Winged Blade still.

Licton
08-08-2015, 07:37 PM
Boots automatically diminish the number of purchase decisions the player makes by 1 (out of 6) and their design is about dragging out the laning phase (also making dieing early more punishing due to increased time to get to lane).

Suggestion #1: Baseline the movement speed from boots into each God's move speed. This speeds up the early game and opens up more possible item combinations.

Suggestion #2: Add smaller amounts of movement speed to many items so that a full 6 item build will have the standard amount of movement speed. This opens up more build options but would slow the game down as movement speed would no longer be an all or nothing stat.

Couldn't agree more!

RyuSenshi
08-09-2015, 06:22 PM
If boots are removed, then another item will rise and take their place. There is build diversity, it's just not much of a thing when it comes to Hunters and most Assassins and Mages.

PapaRodin
08-10-2015, 04:34 AM
Boots being taken away would mostly be a tank buff imo.

Hunters already build Fatalis instead of boots a lot atm. They would "just" get some free movement speed out of it, as everyone.

Mages lack actually good damage Item options to really make use of such a change. Also, that early penetration would be missed.

Assassins would be nerfed by this because they can't exploit the early lack of boots on most gods anymore while not gaining as much either.

Warriors and Guardians though can fill that slot very nicely with added protection, HP and Utility, which there is plenty off, making them essencially even harder to kill, or more damaging. Or both.

AlexError
08-11-2015, 11:31 AM
There is merit to removing all boots and varying an item slot - it's been suggested quite a few times.

The issues that people usually throw out are:

"Another item will replace them" - not necessarily, boots are overpowered for their price, and give a huge chunk of movement speed. Careful balancing would ensure the same problem does not occur.

"It'll make lanes too fast" - not if movement speed scaled with levels; and especially with movement speed diminishing returns, scaling in the later game would be less effective than scaling in the early game. This essentially mimics what boots do.

"Omg fatalis" - Fatalis does not suddenly provide more movement speed after removing boots. Little chunks of movement speed spread around on items like Soul Eater or Odysseus' Bow might compensate for the loss of speed too.

"It would make scaling in the late game much scarier" - as oppose to boots? You're replacing one item with another; this does not affect the scaling of the game in a major way. You cannot replace the slot with a super expensive late game item; you have to build for the early game too!



However, there still are issues with removing boots. Do we really need more diversity than 5 item slots? I think the main issue isn't that one slot is constrained to boots, but it is the mandatory crit items for hunters; power items for mages and aura items for tank supports. That's another topic though.

SpitefulOne
08-11-2015, 12:37 PM
However, there still are issues with removing boots. Do we really need more diversity than 5 item slots? I think the main issue isn't that one slot is constrained to boots, but it is the mandatory crit items for hunters; power items for mages and aura items for tank supports. That's another topic though.

I don't think boots is what makes the item system so boring in Smite but I was aiming at a suggestion that I think would be doable and it does offer another slot for a flex pick item.

I don't agree with the current design philosophy that items are just stat sticks that should merely amplify the kit of the God rather than items which can change how a God plays the game.

I would like to see them look to Dawngate for some fun items that could change how the character could be played.

They could also implement standardized pricing so that all tier 3 items had the same price so everyone's full build had the same value. Cheap defensive items are great but when the stats are so low that they evaporate against penetration items (and kit based penetration) late game, it makes defensive play feel unrewarding.

TigrisCallidus
08-11-2015, 08:33 PM
I would like to see them look to Dawngate for some fun items that could change how the character could be played.


Dawngate died, for good reason, so let it rest.

Also please make a distinction between normal penetration (which gets worse the more protection you have!)
Or %penetration thats the only one actually countering protection.

@Alex Error: None of your suggestions would make it possible for people to choose, when to get movementspeed!
At the moment everyone might get that item, but for some people it is more important.
Being faster than the enemy lets you get an early kill easier as a jungler/melee assasin.

Or an extremely safe midlaner might get boots later, getting him bigger power midgame (more damage) etc.

If you want build diversity more boots (and maybe more expensive boots as they were) would help much more.
I mean as physical CDR is quite limited to get know, as is attackspeed as a magical god.

So the movementspeed scaling with level would not lead to the same result.

Also redoing the whole balance, just because there might be more item diversity? I mean when you look at hunter builds there is allready 0 even though they could chose 5 items freely (and from 4 shoes).


Fatalis gives 10% movementspeed without 18% shoes this would make a lot bigger difference, especially since there were the diminishing returns.

At the moment hastened fatalis only increased movementspeed by about 7% in comparison to not having it.
Afterwards it would increase it by the whole 10% which would make it better.

Also now you could build shoes and than the enemy could not build hastened fatalis as first item for infinite chase since you had more movementspeed until he also got shoes.

I mean there are way to phew items in the game allready to make interesting build decisions, taking 4 away will not help.
Addint more choice would be a lot better!

SpitefulOne
08-12-2015, 08:29 AM
Dawngate died, for good reason, so let it rest.


Dawngate didn't die because of a bad item system.

You don't make any other points worth mentioning since this is all countered in other earlier posts or is off topic.

TigrisCallidus
08-12-2015, 08:53 AM
Dawngate didn't die because of a bad item system.

You don't make any other points worth mentioning since this is all countered in other earlier posts or is off topic.

It died because it was a bad game. It was one of the worst things I played in my life... And seeking inspiration in failed stuff only makes sense, when it is exactly clear, why it failed. The item system may have been part of it.

And I just answered to alex answers to "pseudo" arguments.

Also your way of countering is just not reading what you dont like....

Boots may be flawed, but removing them is just the wrong thing to do.

Fact is there needs to be a DRASTIC change in movementspeed in the game, which has to happen at different times for different gods/situations.

And the easiest way to provide this are boots.

AlexError
08-13-2015, 10:34 AM
Highlighted the important stuff; snipped the rest out:


@Alex Error: None of your suggestions would make it possible for people to choose, when to get movementspeed!
At the moment everyone might get that item, but for some people it is more important.
Being faster than the enemy lets you get an early kill easier as a jungler/melee assasin. Or an extremely safe midlaner might get boots later, getting him bigger power midgame (more damage) etc.

Fatalis gives 10% movementspeed without 18% shoes this would make a lot bigger difference, especially since there were the diminishing returns. At the moment hastened fatalis only increased movementspeed by about 7% in comparison to not having it.
Afterwards it would increase it by the whole 10% which would make it better.

I mean there are way to phew items in the game allready to make interesting build decisions, taking 4 away will not help.
Addint more choice would be a lot better!
I personally agree with giving more choice for boots, but for the sake of playing the devil's advocate, I'm going to be arguing for removing boots.

We aren't removing movement speed; we're removing boots, and giving gods some scaling. Now, not all the movement speed is going to come from the scaling, but the movement speed stat is going to be saturated through items. Nominally, this will give mages more viability to get big power items if they need them, or assassins to build extra movement speed to begin with. By slowing the progression of increasing movement speed, the scaling has a big impact early on and less impact later due to DR and DE. This is essentially what boots are.

Fatalis could be adjusted if needed. DR formula can be adjusted if needed. You're right to be sceptical about removing boots though - it's a huge chance with massive implications on balance.

Grilleds
08-13-2015, 12:07 PM
I'm going to be honest. If I have a good enough early game and I'm just dominating. I sometimes decide to rush another item instead of boots, and forget to buy them until endgame:
http://smite.guru/match/hr/175044409
Tends to annoy my clanmates. Way I see it. Medusa doesn't have feet. Why the heck would she need boots?

Honestly I think we need to take a page out of LoL and Strife's book and add more boots, or at least boot enchantments. Boot's are quite frankly required due to every MOBA except SMNC's emphasis on movement speed, but our viable boot options at the moment are pretty limited.

SpitefulOne
08-13-2015, 01:28 PM
Honestly I think we need to take a page out of LoL and Strife's book and add more boots, or at least boot enchantments. Boot's are quite frankly required due to every MOBA except SMNC's emphasis on movement speed, but our viable boot options at the moment are pretty limited.

The point isn't to remove all movement speed enhancing items. The point is to remove an item tree that's primary function is movement speed enhancement so that the items become functionally mandatory because of the value of movement speed.

AWinterFox
08-13-2015, 01:37 PM
I'm scared as a mage. What happens when any physical damage carry gets Fatalis and Winged blade? What happens?! Besides me screaming in fear as I look around every corner like some hyper active hamster. Oh, and I'm pleading someone else to put some wards down because I can only have two ally ways covered and I want them ALL covered because I can't run away from anything unless my escape is up.

Wait, what if I don't play a god with an escape? What happens then?! Do I just flail and try and thwack them in the face whilst they giggle hysterically and chew at my feet?

WHAT DO I DO. I WANT TO BUILD MOVEMENT SPEED BUT I'M A MAGE/GUARDIAN AND RESTRICTED AND CAN'T REACH ANYONE.

*Cough.* So, yeah. Movement speed as I'm sure you're aware is a very powerful tool. However anything which is primarily ability based? They didn't have the option in the beginning. Just imagine it - you can see the difference with people with and without boots easily. They have fatalis/winged (more then boots) and are so much faster then you. SO MUCH. What do we do?

Just my little nugget. ^^' I am always in favour for diversity in builds though, but this? No thanks!

AlexError
08-14-2015, 10:36 AM
I'm scared as a mage. What happens when any physical damage carry gets Fatalis and Winged blade? What happens?! Besides me screaming in fear as I look around every corner like some hyper active hamster. Oh, and I'm pleading someone else to put some wards down because I can only have two ally ways covered and I want them ALL covered because I can't run away from anything unless my escape is up.

Wait, what if I don't play a god with an escape? What happens then?! Do I just flail and try and thwack them in the face whilst they giggle hysterically and chew at my feet?

WHAT DO I DO. I WANT TO BUILD MOVEMENT SPEED BUT I'M A MAGE/GUARDIAN AND RESTRICTED AND CAN'T REACH ANYONE.

*Cough.* So, yeah. Movement speed as I'm sure you're aware is a very powerful tool. However anything which is primarily ability based? They didn't have the option in the beginning. Just imagine it - you can see the difference with people with and without boots easily. They have fatalis/winged (more then boots) and are so much faster then you. SO MUCH. What do we do?

Just my little nugget. ^^' I am always in favour for diversity in builds though, but this? No thanks!

What happens when you want to build movement speed? You build movement speed. We're removing boots; this does not mean removing every means of movement speed available.

Physicals have fatalis and winged wand. Magicals can then have more items. We're removing boots, and consequently, other items need to be introduced, and more movement speed needs to be diluted onto other items.

TigrisCallidus
08-15-2015, 10:06 AM
Highlighted the important stuff; snipped the rest out:

I personally agree with giving more choice for boots, but for the sake of playing the devil's advocate, I'm going to be arguing for removing boots.


if you just want to argue, go into a debate club.....


The point isn't to remove all movement speed enhancing items. The point is to remove an item tree that's primary function is movement speed enhancement so that the items become functionally mandatory because of the value of movement speed.


If you get movementspeed back onto items, it will be in the end the same as now, except that the boots are not called boots...
So problem solved by renaming...

I mean unless there will be much more movementspeed items, than there are now, then there will be again only about 4 items possible for the movementspeed, they may just be didived between different trees.

If you want more items with movementspeed, you could instead also have moor possible boots, so I do not see why removing the boots would help, when we need more boot like items.

But for me it would also be ok to just rename the boots hats, if that makes some people happy.

Afilia
08-15-2015, 10:25 AM
Nobody is forcing you to buy boots. If you want to skip them so you can maximize your damage/protections, that's your choice. But removing them from the game just because you don't want to buy them is selfish.

AlexError
08-15-2015, 11:30 AM
if you just want to argue, go into a debate club.....


Isn't that the point of the forums? To discuss hypothetical suggestions and see what impact they would have on the game?


Nobody is forcing you to buy boots. If you want to skip them so you can maximize your damage/protections, that's your choice. But removing them from the game just because you don't want to buy them is selfish.

How is it selfish? We're not removing movement speed, nor are we removing any options of movement speed.

Grilleds
08-15-2015, 12:25 PM
The point isn't to remove all movement speed enhancing items. The point is to remove an item tree that's primary function is movement speed enhancement so that the items become functionally mandatory because of the value of movement speed.

This isn't just a Smite thing, it's been grandfathered into the genre. The problem is other MOBA's like Strife and LoL have taken steps to make this more engaging. Smite has not.

Afilia
08-15-2015, 01:30 PM
How is it selfish? We're not removing movement speed, nor are we removing any options of movement speed.

So what exactly is the reason to remove boots then? People are saying they want to diversify their builds. That's fine. If you want to skip boots and trade movement speed for extra power, that's your decision. It doesn't require an entire item tree to be removed from the game though.

AlexError
08-15-2015, 02:14 PM
So what exactly is the reason to remove boots then? People are saying they want to diversify their builds. That's fine. If you want to skip boots and trade movement speed for extra power, that's your decision. It doesn't require an entire item tree to be removed from the game though.

Boots have concentrated movement speed stats on them, which devalues other movement speed items. This makes them somewhat compulsory on all gods which relegates one of your item slots to boots only. It's not selfish - it's a valid suggestion.

Afilia
08-16-2015, 12:32 PM
Boots have concentrated movement speed stats on them, which devalues other movement speed items. This makes them somewhat compulsory on all gods which relegates one of your item slots to boots only. It's not selfish - it's a valid suggestion.

Movement speed is extremely important, boots or not. If you don't have a movement speed item and your opponent does, you will be at a huge disadvantage. That's why boots are so popular. It's an item tree that gives you movement speed with additional stats you can choose from. Removing boots would just be a big indirect buff to gods who already buy movement speed items, like Freya with Fatalis, and would be a big indirect nerf to gods who don't usually buy movement speed items, like Ravana.

TigrisCallidus
08-17-2015, 10:31 AM
Isn't that the point of the forums? To discuss hypothetical suggestions and see what impact they would have on the game?


How is it selfish? We're not removing movement speed, nor are we removing any options of movement speed.

No thats the point of a debating club or debating forum...

This section here is to bring in its own arguments and opinion and not annoy others by argueing for arguings sake...

HawkboyJr
08-17-2015, 11:38 AM
The way movement speed works in Smite at the moment is you have one item that grants movement speed and little else and then you might have one other item that offers some movement speed. It’s like having only one item tree that offers a significant amount of power and then little bits of it sprinkled on one or two other items; a fairly silly concept. I would personally prioritize getting more items into the game over adjusting or removing existing ones, but it would be nice if movement speed was treated like every other stat in the game and you could get chunks from different items, without being tied to one tree for that stat. We had this to a degree in season one with Witchblade, for whom the movement speed has since been removed.

AlexError
08-17-2015, 01:56 PM
Movement speed is extremely important, boots or not. If you don't have a movement speed item and your opponent does, you will be at a huge disadvantage. That's why boots are so popular. It's an item tree that gives you movement speed with additional stats you can choose from. Removing boots would just be a big indirect buff to gods who already buy movement speed items, like Freya with Fatalis, and would be a big indirect nerf to gods who don't usually buy movement speed items, like Ravana.
Removing boots would make other items absorb what boots would give. It wouldn't make Freya any faster than any other god compared to as she is now. Once again: We are not removing movement speed, you're just making it seem like we are. We are distributing movement speed to more items to prevent a compulsory boots buy with concentrated movement speed.



No thats the point of a debating club or debating forum...

This section here is to bring in its own arguments and opinion and not annoy others by argueing for arguings sake...

According to whom? The category is called: "Suggestions & Feedback". Thus, we can suggest and give feedback to potential or hypothetical changes to the game. The whole notion of a debating forum is purely a semantic one, which I will not pursue to justify myself with.

CaptainDoomsday
08-21-2015, 02:55 AM
Boots are only non-optional in Conquest, because the map is giant and wastes time. Higher base MS for all would be AWESOME, but so would a smaller Conq map. If you can get across it faster, boots may be more optional than not at all.

However, since all boots give the same MS, and if they didn't, the highest would be mandatory, they could all be reworked into Ichavial-style items that give their other advantages (a buffed version to be fiscally worthwhile, most likely) and then be optional if base MS were just 18% higher.