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AllknowingWolf
05-12-2015, 05:13 PM
I apologize in advance if this seems a bit scattered. I've always had that problem. Hopefully my points of discussion are clear enough.

Okay, first off I will point out I have online friends that are transgender. Though I do not know any transgender people in real life. (I mean I met my online friend during a few summers briefly.) But my experience is mostly online. I will start off right off the bat, saying I have no problem with the idea of transgender. This is not a hate thing, and I would be happy if no one posted hateful things. But I would like to have a discussion, that I've never seen anyone argue. There are so many inconsistencies. It just confuses me.

Okay, I'll begin with pointing out that men can like 'stereotypical feminine things' and women can like 'stereotypical masculine things' without being a different gender...I see so many articles about little children transgenders because a girl likes fighting or a guy plays with dolls and the parents are calling their kid transgender. And I always think "Are you kidding me?" Their just little kids...And even if your an adult. I believe there is nothing wrong with it, and society should be far less judgmental in general and worry about their own damn problems. But do we really need to make up a fake scientific explanation for it...Its just someones personal likes and dislikes why does there NEED to be a complicated/made up explanation?

Such as there is now, 60 plus genders...I don't even know how that's possible. But, I looked some up and a lot are very similar. Like, one believes you are a men one day and a girl the next. And another that switches depending on mood of the person. And, I'm sorry but there is no dna, or genetics that does that. It's just how one thinks. It's purely psychological, and it has more to do with following society and its rules versus actual scientific facts. Your a man or women, possibly you can be born with both (you know). As that is a extremely rare occurrence but it happens. But why must people try to make there 'be a reason' for it instead of it just being a mental thing, that mostly have environmental reasonings for it.

But I when I see people talk about otherkin, (if you don't know what it is, look it up if you must) it's a purely mental disorder of sorts. So why isn't this considered the same? If your going to judge one and not the other you are hypocrite simple as that. It be nice if we didn't judge people for being different. But can we also not glorify difference like it makes you better than the rest or try to validate it like its somehow not different.

And another reason why I believe people are picking and choosing. So, we have gay, straight, and bi right? Well, most 'transgenders' consider themselves gay. But if one believes 'she is a women.' and he/she is dating a male, shouldn't she consider herself straight? And everyone I see does this. They usually consider themselves gay but they'd technically be straight. And I don't quite know how many 'genders' differ from just man and women. But why haven't they come up 20 different sexual identities too? I know it seems silly to bring up, but if they honestly and truly believe they were born in the wrong body or are not one of the three genders that actually exist. Why do they never seem to actually call themselves gay/straight, how they would be called if they were actually that gender. Its that type of inconsistency that makes me believe some people do it, like its 'a phase' or just to rebel or seek attention. (No, I'm not saying all are this way, as I said, I only know transgenders from online perspective.)

And just how far do you think this should go into changing laws? One big debate I see, is transgenders using the bathroom of their decided gender. And I'll ask do you think this should be allowed, should we just have unisex bathrooms not to offend? And don't you think that men and women will take advantage of this and SAY their transgender just to peek at the opposite sex. I know the average person would at least consider it awkward. I'd like peoples opinion on this as I have seen transgender people disagree this law should change.

Another thing, is how most feminists hate the idea, transgenders would classify themselves a women. I similar parallel I see is that a lot of gays hate bisexuals because the main movement basically tried to push gay is genetics and it's not just a choice. And that complicates things when people are literally picking and choosing who to sleep with. (I would also like to point out, I support gay marriage but I believe its a choice, like transgenders, and they shouldn't be judged for it, on the other hand should not be glorified or turned into 'there born that way, in there dna so THAT'S why no one should judge them.')No one should judge them because everyone has their own problems to worry about, and wasting your time judging others makes you seem like you don't have much going in your life. (Also have plenty of online gay friends, and one who had a 'bi phase' as a friend in real life. Which I would like to point out nearly all of them admit they believe its a lifestyle that they choose.) I guess to turn this into a question, do you believe gays and transgenders are the same or are they different and why? I know people that think both.

So, with those thoughts out there. I hope this doesn't immediately get locked or something based on the title alone. Because I believe more can actually be discussed on this rather the simple, "I hate or love this" extremes the internet seems to focus on so much. Do you have any personal experience and what are your opinions and feelings on crossdressing, transgenders, and how society perceives genders and transgender people.

Edit: My roommate brought this up, that they also want to make locker/changing rooms, and other usually gender restricted things the same as bathrooms. So just adding this because it is a valid topic of discussion.

Pokechu212
05-12-2015, 05:53 PM
Honestly, why should a man or woman be subject to stereotypes because of their gender? If your 10 year old son wants to play with dolls, give him dolls. If your 10 year old daughter wants one of those racecar tracks for their birthday, you should not question them.

The same applies in later life. If you are a man but you would like to act in a way that most would consider "feminine", go ahead. If someone is transexual, they shouldn't have to classify themselves as a gender. They are a person. Why can't they just be a person?

RippleApple
05-12-2015, 06:10 PM
I apologize in advance if this seems a bit scattered. I've always had that problem. Hopefully my points of discussion are clear enough.

No problem.


Okay, first off I will point out I have online friends that are transgender. Though I do not know any transgender people in real life. (I mean I met my online friend during a few summers briefly.) But my experience is mostly online. I will start off right off the bat, saying I have no problem with the idea of transgender. This is not a hate thing, and I would be happy if no one posted hateful things. But I would like to have a discussion, that I've never seen anyone argue. There are so many inconsistencies. It just confuses me.

That's fine. I had a friend who was female who wished she had male genitals so she could umm... experience being a male all over her husband. Not sure how else to say that. People are weird.


Okay, I'll begin with pointing out that men can like 'stereotypical feminine things' and women can like 'stereotypical masculine things' without being a different gender...I see so many articles about little children transgenders because a girl likes fighting or a guy plays with dolls and the parents are calling their kid transgender. And I always think "Are you kidding me?" Their just little kids...

Yeah I never liked that sexualization of children, it makes people look like rampaging pedophiles when they try to apply sexual identity theories to small children.


And even if your an adult. I believe there is nothing wrong with it, and society should be far less judgmental in general and worry about their own damn problems. But do we really need to make up a fake scientific explanation for it...Its just someones personal likes and dislikes why does there NEED to be a complicated/made up explanation?

Straight camps. "If it's just psychological, we can torture it out of them." Basically. It's not that it's a perfect theory but that having a complicated explanation helps prevent psychological torture in the name of the big man in the sky.


Such as there is now, 60 plus genders...I don't even know how that's possible.

It isn't.


But, I looked some up and a lot are very similar. Like, one believes you are a men one day and a girl the next. And another that switches depending on mood of the person. And, I'm sorry but there is no dna, or genetics that does that. It's just how one thinks. It's purely psychological, and it has more to do with following society and its rules versus actual scientific facts.

Yeah that's about right.


Your a man or women, possibly you can be born with both (you know). As that is a extremely rare occurrence but it happens. But why must people try to make there 'be a reason' for it instead of it just being a mental thing, that mostly have environmental reasonings for it.

Intersex is the preferred term, last I checked, for being who were born with both sets of genitals.


But I when I see people talk about otherkin, (if you don't know what it is, look it up if you must) it's a purely mental disorder of sorts. So why isn't this considered the same? If your going to judge one and not the other you are hypocrite simple as that. It be nice if we didn't judge people for being different. But can we also not glorify difference like it makes you better than the rest or try to validate it like its somehow not different.

Otherkin are tumblr regulars. The mental disorder is brought on by frequenting tumblr or tumblr-esque social groups. The main method of medication is for them to no longer visit tumblr or other tumblr-esque social groups and instead visit 4chan or 4chan-esque social groups.


And another reason why I believe people are picking and choosing. So, we have gay, straight, and bi right? Well, most 'transgenders' consider themselves gay. But if one believes 'she is a women.' and he/she is dating a male, shouldn't she consider herself straight? And everyone I see does this. They usually consider themselves gay but they'd technically be straight. And I don't quite know how many 'genders' differ from just man and women. But why haven't they come up 20 different sexual identities too? I know it seems silly to bring up, but if they honestly and truly believe they were born in the wrong body or are not one of the three genders that actually exist. Why do they never seem to actually call themselves gay/straight, how they would be called if they were actually that gender. Its that type of inconsistency that makes me believe some people do it, like its 'a phase' or just to rebel or seek attention. (No, I'm not saying all are this way, as I said, I only know transgenders from online perspective.)

If he wants to wear a dress he can go ahead and wear a dress, but he really shouldn't demand guys recognise him as a woman and date him despite them being straight... for actual women. Yeah, that could be considered a sexual preference too-- "Preferring biologically-born women who are still women." What a concept. Too bad their sexuality demands everyone else accept them and thus they directly attack people who have that preference. It's almost as if there's more prejudice toward purely heterosexual people than any other group. But that would be crazy. :confused:


And just how far do you think this should go into changing laws? One big debate I see, is transgenders using the bathroom of their decided gender. And I'll ask do you think this should be allowed, should we just have unisex bathrooms not to offend? And don't you think that men and women will take advantage of this and SAY their transgender just to peek at the opposite sex. I know the average person would at least consider it awkward. I'd like peoples opinion on this as I have seen transgender people disagree this law should change.

I don't want to see a man take a shit any more than I want to see a woman take a shit any more than I want to see someone who thinks they're a whale take a shit. Simple solution: Single-person bathrooms. Single-person bathrooms everywhere. Why are people even taking a shit in stalls next to each other? It's a little weird.


Another thing, is how most feminists hate the idea, transgenders would classify themselves a women. I similar parallel I see is that a lot of gays hate bisexuals because the main movement basically tried to push gay is genetics and it's not just a choice. And that complicates things when people are literally picking and choosing who to sleep with. (I would also like to point out, I support gay marriage but I believe its a choice, like transgenders, and they shouldn't be judged for it, on the other hand should not be glorified or turned into 'there born that way, in there dna so THAT'S why no one should judge them.')No one should judge them because everyone has their own problems to worry about, and wasting your time judging others makes you seem like you don't have much going in your life. (Also have plenty of online gay friends, and one who had a 'bi phase' as a friend in real life. Which I would like to point out nearly all of them admit they believe its a lifestyle that they choose.) I guess to turn this into a question, do you believe gays and transgenders are the same or are they different and why? I know people that think both.

Being gay and being transgender is different. Being gay means you like the same sex as yourself. Being transgender means you think you're a different sex. Whereas anyone can look at a gay man kissing his boyfriend and say "That man is gay", the same is not true for transgendereds. If you think you're a woman and like a man, you would consider yourself heterosexual and others would consider you homosexual. So there's not total agreement on that same situation where two people with male genitals love each other.


So, with those thoughts out there. I hope this doesn't immediately get locked or something based on the title alone. Because I believe more can actually be discussed on this rather the simple, "I hate or love this" extremes the internet seems to focus on so much. Do you have any personal experience and what are your opinions and feelings on crossdressing, transgenders, and how society perceives genders and transgender people.

I think it's kind of nefarious. I've met a lot of transexuals and literally all of them so far have said that they think they don't need to disclose their original gender to a sexual partner. That's actually just having sex under false pretenses. Like a man telling a falsehood that he's rich to take advantage of an unsuspecting woman. It's unethical.

AllknowingWolf
05-12-2015, 08:22 PM
Honestly, why should a man or woman be subject to stereotypes because of their gender? If your 10 year old son wants to play with dolls, give him dolls. If your 10 year old daughter wants one of those racecar tracks for their birthday, you should not question them.

The same applies in later life. If you are a man but you would like to act in a way that most would consider "feminine", go ahead. If someone is transsexual, they shouldn't have to classify themselves as a gender. They are a person. Why can't they just be a person?

I very much agree with that sentiment. It seems to be the new thing, when people judge someone, another person comes up with a 'reason' so its better. Why can't we just not have a reason, not to judge others...

AllknowingWolf
05-12-2015, 08:38 PM
Intersex is the preferred term, last I checked, for being who were born with both sets of genitals.

Being gay and being transgender is different. Being gay means you like the same sex as yourself. Being transgender means you think you're a different sex. Whereas anyone can look at a gay man kissing his boyfriend and say "That man is gay", the same is not true for transgendereds. If you think you're a woman and like a man, you would consider yourself heterosexual and others would consider you homosexual. So there's not total agreement on that same situation where two people with male genitals love each other.


Okay, good to know, didn't know that term. Since my parents are both in the medical field I probably should. lol.

Well, yeah I suppose could of worded that better. I mean do they share the same kind of attitudes and mannerisms, and are they looked on by people in a similar manner. Stuff of that nature, I know transgender and gay is not the same term. Despite both having extremes, In my personal experience, I find there are far more gay people that can admit they choose it, usually because they didn't find the other sex that interesting when they dated them. I have yet to really met a transgender person that admits he/she decided to get a sex change because stereotypes said they fit the other gender closer. Also I see more people seem less accepting of transgenders. And my experience with gays online has been a bit polarizing. They're either some of the nicest, or some of the most nasty people I've meet online. I'll admit I know far less about transgenders experience wise that's why I wanted others experiences. Thought it be nice to learn.

CountlessClouds
05-12-2015, 08:48 PM
I very much agree with that sentiment. It seems to be the new thing, when people judge someone, another person comes up with a 'reason' so its better. Why can't we just not have a reason, not to judge others...
People are people. We like to judge others, whether we realize this or not. We have this almost ingrained way of thinking of Us vs Them, and like to dehumanize Them. It's just the way we are.
If you look at a lot of cultures, their name for themselves means only "The People." Everyone else is just considered "everybody else."
And it's very hard to look at everybody else as humans if you have to start shooting at them. This has a habit of transferring to everyday life.

RippleApple
05-12-2015, 09:42 PM
People are people. We like to judge others, whether we realize this or not. We have this almost ingrained way of thinking of Us vs Them, and like to dehumanize Them. It's just the way we are.
If you look at a lot of cultures, their name for themselves means only "The People." Everyone else is just considered "everybody else."
And it's very hard to look at everybody else as humans if you have to start shooting at them. This has a habit of transferring to everyday life.

In my experience, the people I got along with the best have nothing to do with culture or creed, but whether they're willing to admit this way of thinking or if they think they're better than me.

AasaOmega
05-15-2015, 08:00 PM
I apologize in advance if this seems a bit scattered. I've always had that problem. Hopefully my points of discussion are clear enough.
No need to apologize.


Okay, first off I will point out I have online friends that are transgender. Though I do not know any transgender people in real life. (I mean I met my online friend during a few summers briefly.) But my experience is mostly online. I will start off right off the bat, saying I have no problem with the idea of transgender. This is not a hate thing, and I would be happy if no one posted hateful things. But I would like to have a discussion, that I've never seen anyone argue. There are so many inconsistencies. It just confuses me.

I definitely won't post hateful things, but it's something I never agreed with perse'.


Okay, I'll begin with pointing out that men can like 'stereotypical feminine things' and women can like 'stereotypical masculine things' without being a different gender...I see so many articles about little children transgenders because a girl likes fighting or a guy plays with dolls and the parents are calling their kid transgender. And I always think "Are you kidding me?" Their just little kids...And even if your an adult. I believe there is nothing wrong with it, and society should be far less judgmental in general and worry about their own damn problems. But do we really need to make up a fake scientific explanation for it...Its just someones personal likes and dislikes why does there NEED to be a complicated/made up explanation?

I guess it's up to the individual what they plan to do with their life, or who they want to be, or who they want to have sexual relations with. I don't consider it child abuse or wrong to tell a female child to play with girl toys, and male child to play with boy toys, then again kids are kids and sometimes girls wanna play with trucks, and boys dolls.

I don't think what you choose to play with as a kid defines you as homosexual and so forth, but I do think the parents reactions do. I think in this day and age parents kind of pressure their kids to be that way, it's the new "in" I suppose.


Such as there is now, 60 plus genders...I don't even know how that's possible. But, I looked some up and a lot are very similar. Like, one believes you are a men one day and a girl the next. And another that switches depending on mood of the person. And, I'm sorry but there is no dna, or genetics that does that. It's just how one thinks. It's purely psychological, and it has more to do with following society and its rules versus actual scientific facts. Your a man or women, possibly you can be born with both (you know). As that is a extremely rare occurrence but it happens. But why must people try to make there 'be a reason' for it instead of it just being a mental thing, that mostly have environmental reasonings for it.

Hermaphrodite is something they definitely cannot help, my grandmother knew someone who was kin to a Hermaphrodite. I will say this some can be confused I suppose, but the vast majority mentally sway to one gender over the other and eventually get the change to mimic that choice.

As for Transgender folk or those who are confused, I think they are just that... they are confused, and I do think it's a mental disorder, but in the end it's not really my business.


But I when I see people talk about otherkin, (if you don't know what it is, look it up if you must) it's a purely mental disorder of sorts. So why isn't this considered the same? If your going to judge one and not the other you are hypocrite simple as that. It be nice if we didn't judge people for being different. But can we also not glorify difference like it makes you better than the rest or try to validate it like its somehow not different.

I guess you learn something new everyday, "otherkin" is kind of weird imo but okay... Again I think that too is a mental disorder.


And another reason why I believe people are picking and choosing. So, we have gay, straight, and bi right? Well, most 'transgenders' consider themselves gay. But if one believes 'she is a women.' and he/she is dating a male, shouldn't she consider herself straight? And everyone I see does this. They usually consider themselves gay but they'd technically be straight. And I don't quite know how many 'genders' differ from just man and women. But why haven't they come up 20 different sexual identities too? I know it seems silly to bring up, but if they honestly and truly believe they were born in the wrong body or are not one of the three genders that actually exist. Why do they never seem to actually call themselves gay/straight, how they would be called if they were actually that gender. Its that type of inconsistency that makes me believe some people do it, like its 'a phase' or just to rebel or seek attention. (No, I'm not saying all are this way, as I said, I only know transgenders from online perspective.)

The truth is imo, the majority of it is a phase, others is an identity crisis they really don't know what they are - which to me is a mind thing (mental disorder). In this world you are one or the other, you can't be both. Even if one did get a sex change they will never be that new sex, does that make sense?


And just how far do you think this should go into changing laws? One big debate I see, is transgenders using the bathroom of their decided gender. And I'll ask do you think this should be allowed, should we just have unisex bathrooms not to offend? And don't you think that men and women will take advantage of this and SAY their transgender just to peek at the opposite sex. I know the average person would at least consider it awkward. I'd like peoples opinion on this as I have seen transgender people disagree this law should change.

I think it should stand as is, someone who is born a male should use the mens restroom, and those who are born a woman should use the womens restroom. Changing the restroom rules would ultimately cause some terrible consequences for both the straight folk, and the LGBT folk.


Another thing, is how most feminists hate the idea, transgenders would classify themselves a women. I similar parallel I see is that a lot of gays hate bisexuals because the main movement basically tried to push gay is genetics and it's not just a choice. And that complicates things when people are literally picking and choosing who to sleep with. (I would also like to point out, I support gay marriage but I believe its a choice, like transgenders, and they shouldn't be judged for it, on the other hand should not be glorified or turned into 'there born that way, in there dna so THAT'S why no one should judge them.')No one should judge them because everyone has their own problems to worry about, and wasting your time judging others makes you seem like you don't have much going in your life. (Also have plenty of online gay friends, and one who had a 'bi phase' as a friend in real life. Which I would like to point out nearly all of them admit they believe its a lifestyle that they choose.) I guess to turn this into a question, do you believe gays and transgenders are the same or are they different and why? I know people that think both.

I too think it's a choice. In the end it's their life, their choice, and so forth. I don't nor will I ever think they were born that way, it's clearly a choice, because they definitely were not born that way.


So, with those thoughts out there. I hope this doesn't immediately get locked or something based on the title alone. Because I believe more can actually be discussed on this rather the simple, "I hate or love this" extremes the internet seems to focus on so much. Do you have any personal experience and what are your opinions and feelings on crossdressing, transgenders, and how society perceives genders and transgender people.

I think I already somewhat covered how I felt, I think it's a mental illness of sorts, it's an identity crisis, they are confused, they were not born that way. I don't hate them, I just don't really condone that lifestyle, forgive me for saying that and I mean no offense.


Edit: My roommate brought this up, that they also want to make locker/changing rooms, and other usually gender restricted things the same as bathrooms. So just adding this because it is a valid topic of discussion.

I don't think I would want to share a locker room with a man who thinks hes a chick, I would be worried for various reasons one being what if they were just faking to see my privates? :/

TheSwimmingCat
06-01-2015, 06:19 PM
first some termenology, transgender is when someone feels like someone of the opposite gender, but either have not started their transition yet, or decide not to actually go through the process, but stay with their current (wrong) gender. transsexual is if you have been through the transition and are officially (on their papers) someone of their real gender. trans-woman is born a man, but not mentally a man. trans-man is born a woman, but not mentally a woman


Okay, I'll begin with pointing out that men can like 'stereotypical feminine things' and women can like 'stereotypical masculine things' without being a different gender...I see so many articles about little children transgenders because a girl likes fighting or a guy plays with dolls and the parents are calling their kid transgender.

many of these articles (at least in my country) later state that the kid actually feels like someone from the opposite gender, most transgenders start feeling that way from very young age (I'm pretty sure that the average age to start feeling transgender for a transgender is 8)


But I when I see people talk about otherkin, (if you don't know what it is, look it up if you must) it's a purely mental disorder of sorts. So why isn't this considered the same? If your going to judge one and not the other you are hypocrite simple as that. It be nice if we didn't judge people for being different. But can we also not glorify difference like it makes you better than the rest or try to validate it like its somehow not different.

both otherkin and every form of transgender is technically a neurological disorder, meaning that the brain shows that it is not standard. in the case of transgenders, the brain is actually a brain of the other gender. having a female brain is not special for humans in general, compared to having an otherkin brain which gets slightly more confusing.


And another reason why I believe people are picking and choosing. So, we have gay, straight, and bi right? Well, most 'transgenders' consider themselves gay. But if one believes 'she is a women.' and he/she is dating a male, shouldn't she consider herself straight? And everyone I see does this. They usually consider themselves gay but they'd technically be straight. And I don't quite know how many 'genders' differ from just man and women. But why haven't they come up 20 different sexual identities too? I know it seems silly to bring up, but if they honestly and truly believe they were born in the wrong body or are not one of the three genders that actually exist. Why do they never seem to actually call themselves gay/straight, how they would be called if they were actually that gender. Its that type of inconsistency that makes me believe some people do it, like its 'a phase' or just to rebel or seek attention. (No, I'm not saying all are this way, as I said, I only know transgenders from online perspective.)

in this case inconsistancy should be the case, since sexual attraction is towards the physical body, so with a transgender if the transgender is physically a man and another man is sexually attracted to the transgender than the man is gay, but if the man is emotianally attracted to the transgender, than the man is straight (confusing, I know)


And just how far do you think this should go into changing laws? One big debate I see, is transgenders using the bathroom of their decided gender. And I'll ask do you think this should be allowed, should we just have unisex bathrooms not to offend? And don't you think that men and women will take advantage of this and SAY their transgender just to peek at the opposite sex. I know the average person would at least consider it awkward. I'd like peoples opinion on this as I have seen transgender people disagree this law should change.

I think transgenders should be allowed to go to the bathroom of the sex they publicly are, so if they dress and act as a woman in public than they should be treated as such. I think this because if a transgender for example publicly introduce themselves as a woman (but is at the moment still physically a man) and they have to use the bathroom for man, than, well people will know and if you have worked hard to publicly be a woman, than it (saying it lightly) sucks to be discovered to be a man. especially if people are going to act nasty towards you for acting as your mental sex.

than there is still the conversation on uni-sex bathrooms for for example high schools and middle schools, for people who know that they are transgender, but dont dare to openly come out for it (its high school, people on high school are generally bitches)


Another thing, is how most feminists hate the idea, transgenders would classify themselves a women. I similar parallel I see is that a lot of gays hate bisexuals because the main movement basically tried to push gay is genetics and it's not just a choice. And that complicates things when people are literally picking and choosing who to sleep with. (I would also like to point out, I support gay marriage but I believe its a choice, like transgenders, and they shouldn't be judged for it, on the other hand should not be glorified or turned into 'there born that way, in there dna so THAT'S why no one should judge them.')No one should judge them because everyone has their own problems to worry about, and wasting your time judging others makes you seem like you don't have much going in your life. (Also have plenty of online gay friends, and one who had a 'bi phase' as a friend in real life. Which I would like to point out nearly all of them admit they believe its a lifestyle that they choose.) I guess to turn this into a question, do you believe gays and transgenders are the same or are they different and why? I know people that think both.

transgender and homosexuality is extremely different, transgender is being upset with your own physical body, while homosexuality is attraction to someone of your own sex. it is also not uncommon to see a trans-woman (born a man) still be attracted to women


So, with those thoughts out there. I hope this doesn't immediately get locked or something based on the title alone. Because I believe more can actually be discussed on this rather the simple, "I hate or love this" extremes the internet seems to focus on so much. Do you have any personal experience and what are your opinions and feelings on crossdressing, transgenders, and how society perceives genders and transgender people.

if this threat was blocked directly, than people are seriously overreacting. this part of the forum is supposed to be about more serious discussion (their are threats here which are more contraversial than this topic)

AllknowingWolf
06-01-2015, 09:18 PM
@everyone I greatly appreciate the discussion. Thanks everyone for participating.

@theswimmingcat Well I've been on a lot of forums, this one probably has some of the more sensible discussion. I've seen. And they're have been blocks for topics like this, and post deleting that broke no rules. Just for a bad apple. So its definitely was possible. But I'm glad its still up.

My question for you, is transgender changing rooms and bathrooms. Do you believe they're would be a way to stop people from taking advantage of stuff like that? I know you said you were cautious about high school, but as you said 8 year olds can feel a different way, and they're are 'definitions' of people who feel like a guy one day and a girl the next. Should little kids be able to have unisex bathrooms? And do you think adults are more respectable? Would there be a way to implement it that wouldn't stir up chaos. (like instead of making all bathrooms unisex have a third bathroom for it. I mean as for taking hard to look that way, a lot of transgender people do not have surgery. Would only people that look like the gender be able to have access? Especially if were talking about young 20 somethings and teenagers they don't have money and should not be wasting it on surgery when they have rent and food to worry about. Just a few things I would be interested to here your opinions on, and anyone else reading.

Disquieted1
06-02-2015, 12:16 AM
What if, one day, you woke up in the morning and found that your dick vanished and you now have boobs?
What if, one day, you woke up in the morning and found your boobs vanished and you now have a dick?
Would your thoughts change?
Would your actions change?
Would the things you like change?

No, no, and no. People associate the genitalia of someone with what they like. Men are supposed to be fighters because we have penises. Women are supposed to do housework because they have longer hair and a vagina. I say fuck that. It's fine for a male to be interested in dolls and knitting, and it's fine for a woman to be a boxer (though that'd be scary). With that said, transgender is the result of the association between a human's gender and said human's interest. Be sure to separate physical gender and identified gender, however.

What do I think about it? I don't oppose it. People are free to express themselves concerning gender identity. If someone identifies as male or female, so be it, regardless of what gender they were born.

RippleApple
06-02-2015, 03:06 AM
Shouldn't even be an issue, to be frank. What I find annoying is that people think liking flowers, pink, fluffy things, love stories, cooking, cleaning and staying at home watching kids is somehow tantamount to being female deep inside. Even transgender advocates are guilty of this.

I'd rather just do the things I enjoy without being labelled something or other. I'm only me, after all, I'm not female deep inside even if I enjoy those things. I'm well-aware I'm a man, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

TheSwimmingCat
06-02-2015, 04:17 AM
My question for you, is transgender changing rooms and bathrooms. Do you believe they're would be a way to stop people from taking advantage of stuff like that? I know you said you were cautious about high school, but as you said 8 year olds can feel a different way, and they're are 'definitions' of people who feel like a guy one day and a girl the next. Should little kids be able to have unisex bathrooms? And do you think adults are more respectable? Would there be a way to implement it that wouldn't stir up chaos. (like instead of making all bathrooms unisex have a third bathroom for it. I mean as for taking hard to look that way, a lot of transgender people do not have surgery. Would only people that look like the gender be able to have access? Especially if were talking about young 20 somethings and teenagers they don't have money and should not be wasting it on surgery when they have rent and food to worry about. Just a few things I would be interested to here your opinions on, and anyone else reading.

there is a difference between looking like the other gender and publicly acting like the other gender. if a trans-man decides to dress up as a man for the rest of his live even though he didnt have surgery, or maybe even still has noticable breasts, that doesnt mean he should be treated as a woman, because of various reasons. 1 people below the age of 18 are not allowed to have genital surgery. 2 as you mentioned not everyone can make the physical change because of money reasons. 3. the transgender might have changed his/her gender in his/her papers already, you're allowed to change your gender in your papers when you have a official form from a hospital, which is allowed to do sex changing surgery.

I doubt people will take advantage of when dressing as the opposite gender, than they're allowed to enter the opposites genders bathroom, to be able to enter you have to act a whole day as a gender you're not, I think the disadvantages outways the advantages.

the idea of unisex bathrooms on high schools is to have unisex bathrooms next to the standard bathrooms.

percentage wise adults are less respectfull towards transgenders, than teenagers, but teenagers who dont respect transgenders react infinitly harder towards it. where only a few adults will actually make insulting remarks in a public situation, most of the teenagers would make similar remarks

AllknowingWolf
06-02-2015, 01:21 PM
there is a difference between looking like the other gender and publicly acting like the other gender. if a trans-man decides to dress up as a man for the rest of his live even though he didnt have surgery, or maybe even still has noticable breasts, that doesnt mean he should be treated as a woman, because of various reasons. 1 people below the age of 18 are not allowed to have genital surgery. 2 as you mentioned not everyone can make the physical change because of money reasons. 3. the transgender might have changed his/her gender in his/her papers already, you're allowed to change your gender in your papers when you have a official form from a hospital, which is allowed to do sex changing surgery.

I doubt people will take advantage of when dressing as the opposite gender, than they're allowed to enter the opposites genders bathroom, to be able to enter you have to act a whole day as a gender you're not, I think the disadvantages outways the advantages.

the idea of unisex bathrooms on high schools is to have unisex bathrooms next to the standard bathrooms.

percentage wise adults are less respectfull towards transgenders, than teenagers, but teenagers who dont respect transgenders react infinitly harder towards it. where only a few adults will actually make insulting remarks in a public situation, most of the teenagers would make similar remarks

The thing about that is something you already mentioned I believe. Acting like another gender is more a stereotype than anything else. I'm not quite sure what you mean here but I assume what you mean is people shouldn't have to look like their respective gender as long as they act like their specific gender. But as already mentioned, 'how to behave' as a man and women kind of started this whole mess.

And the major problem with that, is people will certainly take advantage of stuff like that. How would the government or anyone for that matter be able to proof this person acted like a man or a women? I think you meant to say the advantages outway the disadvantages since you said you doubt people will lie. I do think having a third option may be a nice choice but that could lead to cost issues, and some may try to stir up trouble from both sides of it.

I also looked up, articles for these type of unisex things, I saw every article I read say how great unisex bathrooms would be (women would get lower lines and men would get a powdering room) I doubt that be used a whole lot by men and if both genders could use the same bathroom, I'm unsure if the lines would actually change but that's a different story...

But nearly every one thoughts about unisex changing rooms are it's degrading, sexist and horrible for all women everywhere. (assuming most articles I looked at were liberally slanted) So I suppose their is a difference...but not to an actual transgender person.

So as for topics about this, it does seem that politically and socially it has some uncertainties. You also didn't mention changing rooms yourself. Do you believe the same? (as you did for the bathrooms.)

A little conflicting maybe its how it was worded, but I understand what you mean and agree when it comes to who will do the 'verbal' harassing.

LanceUppercutt
06-02-2015, 01:54 PM
What if, one day, you woke up in the morning and found that your dick vanished and you now have boobs?
What if, one day, you woke up in the morning and found your boobs vanished and you now have a dick?
Would your thoughts change?
Would your actions change?
Would the things you like change?

Yes, the hormonal changes would have a pretty significant effect


Men are supposed to be fighters because we have penises.

There are several biological reasons men typically make better fighters

Disquieted1
06-03-2015, 12:22 AM
Yes, the hormonal changes would have a pretty significant effect

There are several biological reasons men typically make better fighters

You're confusing sex and gender. Sex is the biological male and female. Gender is the mental half of it. Transgender is possible, transsex isn't (because you can't change your genes).

LanceUppercutt
06-03-2015, 03:40 AM
You're confusing sex and gender. Sex is the biological male and female. Gender is the mental half of it. Transgender is possible, transsex isn't (because you can't change your genes).

you are mistaken, In humans and other mammals, testosterone is secreted primarily by the testicles of males. going off the what if question if the genitals were removed it would make sense that there would be a variety of mental changes since hormones would be significantly affected

Dezere
06-03-2015, 10:17 AM
Being one myself, i'll tell you now that while in my mind i feel i am a female, my body is still a male, and i identify as bi, but would identify as gay if asked, due to how others may still percieve me as a male.

(this is in response to your part about sexuality identities)

Disquieted1
06-03-2015, 02:32 PM
you are mistaken, In humans and other mammals, testosterone is secreted primarily by the testicles of males. going off the what if question if the genitals were removed it would make sense that there would be a variety of mental changes since hormones would be significantly affected

You're still combining sex and gender. But, fair enough, to an extent. Hormones do affect thoughts, but I don't believe it would be significant.

I had a "discussion" with someone on Facebook about transgender, particularly in Caitlin Jenner's case. He judged her with the Bible and said she was wrong and going to hell. I gave a thought out response asking for a civil discussion. Comment got deleted. He was in a positive feedback loop with those that agreed with him, saying that Caitlin will burn in Hell.

>_>

LanceUppercutt
06-03-2015, 02:39 PM
You're still combining sex and gender. But, fair enough, to an extent. Hormones do affect thoughts, but I don't believe it would be significant.


that is because I believe the two are connected

you seem pretty open minded, so you may enjoy this episode, overall the series is pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE

TheSwimmingCat
06-03-2015, 03:02 PM
I had a "discussion" with someone on Facebook about transgender, particularly in Caitlin Jenner's case. He judged her with the Bible and said she was wrong and going to hell. I gave a thought out response asking for a civil discussion. Comment got deleted. He was in a positive feedback loop with those that agreed with him, saying that Caitlin will burn in Hell.

the internet on serious topics in a nuttshell

AllknowingWolf
06-03-2015, 03:50 PM
You're still combining sex and gender. But, fair enough, to an extent. Hormones do affect thoughts, but I don't believe it would be significant.

I had a "discussion" with someone on Facebook about transgender, particularly in Caitlin Jenner's case. He judged her with the Bible and said she was wrong and going to hell. I gave a thought out response asking for a civil discussion. Comment got deleted. He was in a positive feedback loop with those that agreed with him, saying that Caitlin will burn in Hell.

>_>

Well having discussions on facebook, is frankly impossible, I wouldn't take anything said online seriously, I'd bet it is trolls, I'll stray away from there not to go off topic. I do agree with lance, That, Men and women are not built mentally, emotionally and psychically, the same. The reason I bring this up, is because a lot of things such as "why aren't more men/women is this job or field? Well in general that's because most women and men have different ideas on careers. But as how people learn manners, likes and dislikes, and there thoughts and so forth. I don't think it makes too big of a difference, and it should definitely not matter how people act or behave as long as its respectable in public.

But in your scenario, if someone woke up with different organs, it wouldn't effect you as much. No, because your brain is what matters.

Also to bring up a new topic, sex changes apparently lead often to regret. It happens often and even has some explanation to it, and the pills they give you 'to balance out hormones seems to screw people up.' http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth http://www.sexchangeregret.com/ There is alot of youtube stories to, if you look it up. The only evidence I could find to the contrary is by the Huntingtonpost. And they have been caught lying multiple times and are usually extremely one sided.

Disquieted1
06-03-2015, 08:27 PM
that is because I believe the two are connected

you seem pretty open minded, so you may enjoy this episode, overall the series is pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE
Watching it at the moment. It's pretty interesting, and raises the question "can men and women be different but equal?" It goes a ways into gender equality, which is another thread. Very interesting though.


But in your scenario, if someone woke up with different organs, it wouldn't effect you as much. No, because your brain is what matters.

Also to bring up a new topic, sex changes apparently lead often to regret. It happens often and even has some explanation to it, and the pills they give you 'to balance out hormones seems to screw people up.' http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth http://www.sexchangeregret.com/ There is alot of youtube stories to, if you look it up. The only evidence I could find to the contrary is by the Huntingtonpost. And they have been caught lying multiple times and are usually extremely one sided.

I read this on an article on Caitlin Jenners. She apparently has had second thoughts about changing genders. According to a professional working with her, second thoughts are normal. Though, with such a big change, anyone will have second thoughts. I think that second thoughts are a product of uncertainty. Since transgenders are living a life of the opposite gender, they aren't fully certain what to do.

Hormonal changes will mess with someone a lot. It'll bring around a lot of physical (and possibly mental/emotional) changes. This contributes to uncertainty. With that said, at what point will a male no longer be male, and a female no longer be female?

Gloomweaver
06-20-2015, 04:47 AM
Being a student of Psychology and Gender studies myself, I happen to know that TheSwimmingCat is largely correct. Also, while I don't know any transgenders or transsexuals, My Human Sexuality professor was an adjunct who also worked as a counselor for transgenders. There is a certain point during the counseling for someone who is actually undergoing a sex change where they are told to start dressing and acting like the gender they are transitioning to, and as part of that stage they are specifically told to start using the restroom of their new gender. I'm not saying it's right. I just want people to understand this isn't a choice that transsexuals/transgenders are making on their own. They're following their doctor's orders. If you're going to blame anyone, blame the doctor. I might be overly sensitive about who is actually responsible here, because I live in an area that has had a few particularly brutal attacks due to transgenders using the bathroom, So I want people to know what's going on and why. As for my own personal opinion, I don't really get why it's an issue. Any Public bathrooms I've been in are either designed for one person, or they have stalls. Nobody's in there gazing at anyone else's junk anyway.

KFire
06-29-2015, 06:38 PM
Plz dont read if you cant take some words that relate to the issue. (Vagina, penis, sex ...)

I read a bunch recently about trasgenders, and it is a very complex topic. Sexual orientation is simple, but sexual gender is a tough topic. Sexual gender does not have a lot in common with sexual orientation.

As far as i know, there are two types of trasgenders. First ones usually start to show signs early on. They have more in common with the opposite sex than with theirs. You can think of them as someone with a body of a gender but a mind of the other. They usually change genders early on because they are just more from the other gender than theirs.

Think of woman1 that has a crush in woman2. S(h)e wants to have sex with woman2, but s(h)e does not want to have sex as s(h)e is. S(h)e wants to use his penis that nature played a twisted joke and placed a vagina instead. S(h)e cannot comprehend why s(h)e does not have it. S(h)e dresses like a man lives like a man and wants to have sex with woman2 as a man.

The second case is a bit different. They change sex later or not at all. They by all social standards are a perfect example of their gender. They live their live as their gender, and no one would suspect that they are trasgenders. Maybe someone from the first group or a homosexual would accuse them of being afraid of coming out. However, they are jusr being themselves. At some point they get the feeling that their body is not theirs. Even if they enjoy activities and live of their gender, they feel that they should have another body. I think they change genders when they cant stand anymore being trapped in somebody's elses body.

Think of man1 that has a crush on woman2. Yep woman2 has 2 trasgenders that want her. Man1 is a football player and whenever (s)he sees woman2 (s)he wants her for herself. (S)he wants to have sex with her, but not with that penis that he feels that is not hers. (S)he wants to have sex with her as a woman.

There was a experiment done on natural hermaphrodites. A lot of times at birth doctors would tell the parents to choose one gender for their baby. Usually it would be female since it is easier to cut. A lot of times, as the child grew he/she would act like the other gender and be homosexual if that word is even aplicable for this. Even if they were born with both genitals, their brains were more conditioned for one gender.

What i want to get is that the topic is complicated, but i am afraid it has to do more with biology than with society.