PDA

View Full Version : Can we get a Sub Forum for Only Diamond/Plat conquest players?



Ecoces
03-31-2014, 12:45 AM
(and high level tournament players too)

So we can discuss god/game balance without being interrupted by casual gamers that don't even have like 300 wins on their account who think they know what they are talking about?

make it where everyone can read this forum but you have to be a Platinum, Diamond or High level tournament player in order to make posts.

UPDATE: new qualifications you have to have one of these in order to post in the sub-forum i am suggesting

1000 CONQUEST(league or normal) wins
on a team that is in the round of 8 consistently in the tournaments (both EU and NA)
Plat/Diamon/Master in conquest leagues.

Mr357
03-31-2014, 01:33 AM
This sounds so elitist, but isn't a bad idea.

Kiaru
03-31-2014, 01:36 AM
Smitejunkies yes please.

ExitusGT
03-31-2014, 02:49 AM
(and high level tournament players too)


What´s about Arena or Joust Diamond/Plat?
This idea is not too bad but will never happen.. for sure.

NinjaSniPAH
03-31-2014, 03:04 AM
Its an interesting idea but I don't know how well it could work. (and I don't expect HiRez to do it anyway)

Dmantakae
03-31-2014, 04:50 AM
A place to have actual meaningful discussions? You jest, there's /r/Smite bro.

But in all seriousness I agree.

Lefargon
03-31-2014, 05:10 AM
Can we have a "no scrubs allowed" club so that we may sit in our ivory tower parroting each other's opinions and not being pestered by those filthy casuals.

Hi-Rez is never going to do this. If you don't like what someone has to say, inform them why they're wrong or better yet ignore them. Having an exclusive club for all highly skilled players just promotes elitism and stifles constructive dialogue more than it does promote it.

Khallis
03-31-2014, 05:55 AM
Hi-Rez is never going to do this. If you don't like what someone has to say, inform them why they're wrong or better yet ignore them. Having an exclusive club for all highly skilled players just promotes elitism and stifles constructive dialogue more than it does promote it.

a competitive game should always be balanced around the top tier players. they are the top tier for a reason as they know the game better. I personally would love to see what the best of the best can come up with as far as balance changes. I completely agree high level players should have a place on the forum where they can talk directly to the devs about balance and changes to game mechanics.

and mind you i rarely if ever play ranked.

Lefargon
03-31-2014, 06:06 AM
high level players should have a place on the forum where they can talk directly to the devs about balance

I wouldn't have a problem with that but it's hardly what came across in the OP and I honestly don't think a public forum is necessarily the best forum for that kind of dialogue.

Aurasai
03-31-2014, 07:00 AM
So, unless you are a Platinum+ player with above 300 wins, your opinion is considered as invalid, as you are a second class citizen and have no right to have a say upon what's happening in the game?

I do agree balance should be made based upon competative experience, but basing it on a tiny elitist club, is the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

Belgabad
03-31-2014, 07:34 AM
a competitive game should always be balanced around the top tier players. they are the top tier for a reason as they know the game better. I personally would love to see what the best of the best can come up with as far as balance changes. I completely agree high level players should have a place on the forum where they can talk directly to the devs about balance and changes to game mechanics.

and mind you i rarely if ever play ranked.
Although I agree to a degree, if a game is only balanced around high level players, then the non-competitive players end up getting stomped by something that is completely broken in anything other than a competitive setting. I remember when I played on my second account right before Kali got a bleed on her 1 and 2 (before the rework), people thought Kali was the most broken thing in existence (low level players hate just about any assassin, whether they're considered weak or not), but Hirez gave Kali a huge buff because she was very weak in competitive play.

I'm sure this probably pissed off a lot of new players and probably even made some of them quit because they considered assassins broken, but Hirez basically ignored them and told them to get good by buffing Kali to a huge degree.

Anyways, OT: If Hirez actually did something like this, I would expect them to wait at least 3 months after launch for a bigger plat/diamond playerbase

Taresh
03-31-2014, 07:56 AM
Yeah... let's NOT promote Elitism shall we?

ImHamek
03-31-2014, 09:41 AM
What balance conversations have been started by plat/diamond players and been derailed by the uninformed?

Grockr
03-31-2014, 09:47 AM
Didnt read thread, but i think high-level players should be somewhat highlighted in forums, especially in suggestions forum

However I believe most high-level players aint much interested in this topic, simply because if you wanna be better player you have to accept game as it is :P

Leyy
03-31-2014, 09:49 AM
So you have to have 300+ wins or be diamond/plat on just conquest to be considered a good player? O.o

Lefargon
03-31-2014, 09:57 AM
So you have to have 300+ wins

Yes. If there's anything I've learned from playing MOBAs it's that average skill is almost directly proportional to amount of time played and I'd say 300+ wins is a good indicator that someone is a decent to good player.

It still doesn't necessarily mean they know anything about game design or balance though and for that matter neither does being in diamond/plat.

Ecoces
03-31-2014, 02:38 PM
What balance conversations have been started by plat/diamond players and been derailed by the uninformed?

go to many of the god balance changes and even some posts that talk about balance, for example the my "can we nerf warriors yet" post and you will see quite a few people who barely have like 200 wins and no league experience trying to talk about balance as if they know what they are talking about.

you know why competitive players don't post on forums? because of crap like that ... casuals coming into a discussion when they have no clue what they are talking about. i mean look at reddit there were casuals on there constantly (and still do) saying obviously overpowered gods are "fine as they are".

A separate forum for high level players is not promoting elitism stop crying just because you wouldn't be invited, and im not saying take this sub section away from the general public to discuss balance changes at all. or here is an idea play more and get better and move up in ranked.

http://nigmahon.blogspot.com/2011/10/balance-or-why-your-opinion-is-wrong.html

Bahamut
03-31-2014, 05:57 PM
Being good at a game doesn't mean you have good design judgement. Something clearly evident when you discriminate against the gameplay application as it is to the overwhelming majority of the paying consumers.

Riot has shown before that a game can not be balanced exclusively around elite players, and that balance is different for different player tiers. Ultimately, if one is prioritized over the other, it's gonna be the overwhelming majority of consumers, not the arrogant achievers. Try to keep that in mind.

DesaCr8
03-31-2014, 06:35 PM
What's funny, for such a long time, Smite didn't even have any leagues, and I was still seeing this elitist acting. People saying everything in this game needs to be built around Conquest, and who doesn't play Conquest, shouldn't write anything, then leagues came, they've changed. You need to play in any game mode in league to have any right to talk. Then again changed, you need to be platinum/diamond to do it. And now, you need to be platinum/diamond in Conquest. Seriously, those of you that come up with such suggestions, think what you did in the past too, you'll always think you know what's the best for this game and everyone else is a noob, if they are not in same boat with you.

+Being high rank doesn't mean you are good, remember that. And also those streamers that you see on tournament and so on, they are not the best either, they are who had the option to get there in the first place. Because for example if me or many other people would want to participate on a tournament now, they won't be able to, because they have no team. This is the same as saying things like "Halle Berry is the most beautiful woman on earth", no she isn't, you don't know all women on earth, first of all, to say that.

Most of you just come up with some things just to feed your big ego and feel great, but you are not the best or anything.

Ecoces
03-31-2014, 06:41 PM
Being good at a game doesn't mean you have good design judgement. Something clearly evident when you discriminate against the gameplay application as it is to the overwhelming majority of the paying consumers.

Riot has shown before that a game can not be balanced exclusively around elite players, and that balance is different for different player tiers. Ultimately, if one is prioritized over the other, it's gonna be the overwhelming majority of consumers, not the arrogant achievers. Try to keep that in mind.

being bad at the game or not playing the game enough DEFINITELY means you do not have good design judgement either. I would rather have guys like Zap, Wolfy, GameHunter, Youngbae, Jerbie and other high level players work with the developers on balance then most of the random casual assault players on this forum.

MikalMirkas
03-31-2014, 06:43 PM
So, unless you are a Platinum+ player with above 300 wins, your opinion is considered as invalid, as you are a second class citizen and have no right to have a say upon what's happening in the game?

I do agree balance should be made based upon competative experience, but basing it on a tiny elitist club, is the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

These little elitist clubs never turn out well. It's what turned the Awesomenauts community into a balancing nightmare.

In addition, the club doesn't account for those who don't play ranked but have a high playtime. Maybe someone such as myself doesn't want to put up with the bullshit in ranked?

Anyway, this shit won't happen. There are already small insider discussions about balance between competitive groups.

Ecoces
03-31-2014, 06:45 PM
What's funny, for such a long time, Smite didn't even have any leagues, and I was still seeing this elitist acting. People saying everything in this game needs to be built around Conquest, and who doesn't play Conquest, shouldn't write anything, then leagues came, they've changed. You need to play in any game mode in league to have any right to talk. Then again changed, you need to be platinum/diamond to do it. And now, you need to be platinum/diamond in Conquest. Seriously, those of you that come up with such suggestions, think what you did in the past too, you'll always think you know what's the best for this game and everyone else is a noob, if they are not in same boat with you.

+Being high rank doesn't mean you are good, remember that. And also those streamers that you see on tournament and so on, they are not the best either, they are who had the option to get there in the first place. Because for example if me or many other people would want to participate on a tournament now, they won't be able to, because they have no team. This is the same as saying things like "Halle Berry is the most beautiful woman on earth", no she isn't, you don't know all women on earth, first of all, to say that.

Most of you just come up with some things just do feed your big ego and feel great, but you are not the best or anything.

the game IS balanced around conquest solely though hirez has said this time and time again. sorry that this idea seems to hurt YOUR ego but the game shouldn't be balanced around the casual. arena or assault scene.

Taresh
03-31-2014, 06:50 PM
the game IS balanced around conquest solely though hirez has said this time and time again. sorry that this idea seems to hurt YOUR ego but the game shouldn't be balanced around the casual. arena or assault scene.

Hey there's that Elitist attitude everyone's talking about. :D

Aximundi
03-31-2014, 06:57 PM
Hey there's that Elitist attitude everyone's talking about. :D

Elitist or not he is right..

As for the forum there are many people who don't play ranked to get diamond or plat.
Myself i find it not enjoyable to have to carry games so i don't play ranked
The message it sends out from the original posters thing is that if your not in those leagues your suck and cant have a serious conversation.
Now the counter argument can be made of i take that out of context but its the message that has been put out there really.

pieface
03-31-2014, 06:58 PM
I just don't think this should happen. While balance should happen from a top down perspective, the lower level players and beginners still need to have an enjoyable time. This is why meditation isn't reworked or changed, since it is designed for new players. This is why Arachne was nerfed even though she was only a glorified pubstomper.

Taresh
03-31-2014, 07:10 PM
I just don't think this should happen. While balance should happen from a top down perspective, the lower level players and beginners still need to have an enjoyable time. This is why meditation isn't reworked or changed, since it is designed for new players. This is why Arachne was nerfed even though she was only a glorified pubstomper.

So it's finally happened.... me and you agree on something Pieface... what is this world coming too. :'(

Ecoces
03-31-2014, 07:36 PM
Hey there's that Elitist attitude everyone's talking about. :D

how is that elitist? competitive games should never be balanced around casual modes. Smite is attempting to be an e-sport game the worst thing you could do in those type of games is balance around the casual gamers.

Taresh
03-31-2014, 07:44 PM
how is that elitist? competitive games should never be balanced around casual modes. Smite is attempting to be an e-sport game the worst thing you could do in those type of games is balance around the casual gamers.

Oh well, I'm sure they'll do it eventually... just like every other MOBA out there and then their will be elitism out the ass.

RatGirl
03-31-2014, 07:48 PM
People in every game suggest this kind of thing, and the devs never do it. The thing is, just because someone isn't platinum rank doesn't mean that they're completely clueless about the game -- it simply means they don't bother to ladder or play league matches. They might have 1000+ games of conquest played, but only 2-3 ladder games. Does that mean that the person with 300 league matches absolutely knows more? Of course not.

Trying to make an elitist section of the forum is never a good idea. Especially not for balance changes, as many top-tier players are invariably biased -- a lot of them don't want "balance", what they want is their personal god/champion/race/etc to have some advantages, or to get rid of weaknesses. Which is why you want to listen to EVERYONE who plays that god. If there are issues that affect all levels of play with the god, then there's something obviously in need of taking a look at. I've lost count of how many ridiculous suggestions I've seen for champions/races in LoL, dota, and SC2 based on player bias, even among the "top tier" ladder players.

But it's kind of a moot point, as I really doubt Hi-Rez would do it. It's kind of akin to giving the finger to the majority of your playerbase.

Firellius
03-31-2014, 08:03 PM
In competitive circles, balance is an abstract concept. There pretty much never will be balance, and the only thing that comes off the "Top-tier" balance discussions is nerfing of current favorites.

Furthermore, what I noticed in League was that in its desperation to find competitive balance, it forgot that it's a game and it forgot that it was supposed to be fun. I do not ever want this to happen with SMITE, and I worry that it will, primarily because of competitive play.

If you determine game balance on competitive play, you get a game that's (arguably) fun to watch, not a game that's fun to play.

And for the love of god Hi-Rez, we need our blank lines!

FriedGerry
03-31-2014, 08:48 PM
NEWS FLASH just because you can play on a conquest gamemode with a different name doesn't make you any less casual

Taresh
03-31-2014, 08:58 PM
The amount of elitism in this thread is too damn high.

Ragnarocket
03-31-2014, 10:01 PM
So I wouldn't be able to discuss balance even though I've played this game since basically the start of closed beta and have WAY too many games played (I just checked my account, I have 1500 wins...don't even wanna think about total games)? That doesn't seem quite right...

Even though I don't play league (I don't have the time or patience to deal with that) I still play and feel as though I have a good grasp of the mechanics and the gods themselves. Using something like "Diamond or Platinum players only" just filters out what could be a lot of good data, sometimes you'll find the most useful insights from the places you least expect.


The amount of elitism in this thread is too damn high.

Agreed friend...

OblivKnight
04-01-2014, 01:52 AM
Please no. There's a lot of skilled players who can perform at a high level that don't have the time to grind month after month of ranked to make such high levels or others that choose not to play competitively. There's also a heavy amount of elitism towards conquest, which yes is how the game is balanced around, but Arena nad Joust still offer benchmarks on varying forms of Conquest and player strengths and skill levels.

Personally, I watch a lot of streams as mechanically, I'm not even close to the same level of who I watch. I enjoy the streamers for both their personalities and performance and due to watching streams so often, I've picked up on a lot of game knowledge, strategies, and information I may not otherwise know.

Belgabad
04-01-2014, 08:47 AM
Yes. If there's anything I've learned from playing MOBAs it's that average skill is almost directly proportional to amount of time played and I'd say 300+ matches is a good indicator that someone is a decent to good player.

It still doesn't necessarily mean they know anything about game design or balance though and for that matter neither does being in diamond/plat.
Isn't ~300 matches the amount it takes to reach level 30? If so, then that doesn't seem like a very good way of judging skill, considering people in bronze conquest are still buying meditation.

Lefargon
04-01-2014, 08:56 AM
Isn't ~300 matches the amount it takes to reach level 30? If so, then that doesn't seem like a very good way of judging skill, considering people in bronze conquest are still buying meditation.

Oh, I meant to say 300+ wins. Apologies.

Edit: While matches won is not necessarily a good indicator of meta game knowledge, a high number of wins (especially when combined with a good W/L ratio) is generally a good indicator of decent to good mechanical knowledge and skill.

dafinch
04-01-2014, 08:57 AM
Ive been playing since closed beta and i dont play ranked however I'm fairly good at the game. Why shouldn't i be able to hang out with the pubstompers of ranked if i do it in casual?

TLDR; Hell no.

MikalMirkas
04-01-2014, 01:49 PM
In competitive circles, balance is an abstract concept. There pretty much never will be balance, and the only thing that comes off the "Top-tier" balance discussions is nerfing of current favorites.

Furthermore, what I noticed in League was that in its desperation to find competitive balance, it forgot that it's a game and it forgot that it was supposed to be fun. I do not ever want this to happen with SMITE, and I worry that it will, primarily because of competitive play.

If you determine game balance on competitive play, you get a game that's (arguably) fun to watch, not a game that's fun to play.

And for the love of god Hi-Rez, we need our blank lines!

As a mechanical designer and someone who has participated in competitive events, I disagree. There is no such thing as true balance but there is relative balance. In essence, everything you have must be compensated from a base standpoint and then both nerfed and buffed respectively. This is very hard to do in competitive games and as such, relative balance exists and true balance is nearly unattainable. If you want me to post a big wall of text backing up my argument, just respond to this thread. Otherwise there's no point. Basically,


NEWS FLASH just because you can play on a conquest gamemode with a different name doesn't make you any less casual

filthy casseroles

Ecoces
06-28-2014, 10:21 PM
Pretty Please with sugar on top.

pieface
06-28-2014, 11:47 PM
It just logistically doesn't make sense. To restrict membership to only platinum and diamond league players and 'elite' tournament players means a very, very small forum. Plus, what happens if you are constantly in and out of platinum league? Do you get your access taken away just because you dropped down to gold I one day? But if you get to keep your access even though you dropped down, shouldn't all gold players get the same acess?

Not to mention how vague the tournament player idea is. Would you restrict access to the top 10 teams? Top 5? But if you restricted it to top 5, you would cut off IIIII from EU and Critasaurus from NA. Top 10 teams would have people who, by your ideals, have no real qualifications.

Sure, I understand how annoying it is seeing the feedback on this forum from seemingly incompetent failures, but you have to remember that this game is a game. It is meant to be fun. If low level players can't voice their opinion, no matter how silly you think it is, the game cannot grow on all levels.

SeductivePower
06-29-2014, 01:11 AM
(and high level tournament players too)

So we can discuss god/game balance without being interrupted by casual gamers that don't even have like 300 wins on their account who think they know what they are talking about?

make it where everyone can read this forum but you have to be a Platinum, Diamond or High level tournament player in order to make posts.

I smell a League of Legends player...Nothing more to say.

Ecoces
06-29-2014, 02:18 AM
well this post was made quite a while ago i think i have to update the qualifications

you can post on this forum IF you have one of the 3

1000+ CONQUEST (League and/or regular) wins
Plat/Diamond/Masters player
on a competitive team that makes it to the round of 8 consistently.

don't have any of those then you can post on these new forums, other than that you can view them anytime.

Ecoces
06-29-2014, 02:21 AM
It just logistically doesn't make sense. To restrict membership to only platinum and diamond league players and 'elite' tournament players means a very, very small forum. Plus, what happens if you are constantly in and out of platinum league? Do you get your access taken away just because you dropped down to gold I one day? But if you get to keep your access even though you dropped down, shouldn't all gold players get the same acess?

nope you drop out of plat you can't post


Not to mention how vague the tournament player idea is. Would you restrict access to the top 10 teams? Top 5? But if you restricted it to top 5, you would cut off IIIII from EU and Critasaurus from NA. Top 10 teams would have people who, by your ideals, have no real qualifications.

yeah this is an older post i would say if you make it into the round of 8 consistently or maybe the top 8 teams in points for NA and EU you can post.


Sure, I understand how annoying it is seeing the feedback on this forum from seemingly incompetent failures, but you have to remember that this game is a game. It is meant to be fun. If low level players can't voice their opinion, no matter how silly you think it is, the game cannot grow on all levels.

they can post their stupid opinions on any other forum, I am not saying lock the entire forum down I am saying make a special section for top level players.

KingScuba
06-29-2014, 02:47 AM
Terrible Idea. This would just create a pack of snobs.

If you want to talk to other platinum players, add them or PM them over the forum.

Ecoces
06-29-2014, 02:07 PM
Terrible Idea. This would just create a pack of snobs.

If you want to talk to other platinum players, add them or PM them over the forum.

I want to discuss smite issues with other top tier players on the forum so that HiRez can make good changes based on those discussions. People on this forum cry way too much about this idea. "but im a special snowflake that should be able to post anywhere i want because I play arena once a month".

thats what all the other forums are for this sub forum I am asking for is specifically for top tier competitive players who want to make the competitive game better without the "well i think arachne is perfectly fine because when i play with her in assault i do awesome!" comments from level 20 players.

this is how its done in other walks of life ... the military doesn't call in privates to discuss tactics, big business doesn't consult with the mail room guy who has been with the company for 2 days to discuss its future and direction.

Flareb00t
06-29-2014, 03:59 PM
Frankly, there aren't any properly top tier players in here. The ones that the true scene is balanced around are already in talks with HiRez on what their opinions of the game's balance are because they are asked directly.

SpitefulxOne
06-30-2014, 03:37 PM
Hirez already has this in place but you aren't qualified to see it. Sorry.

Mexican
06-30-2014, 11:25 PM
I think it should be diamond + masters. Honestly, its too easy to get to plat.

AjaxNecrotic
06-30-2014, 11:32 PM
(and high level tournament players too)

So we can discuss god/game balance without being interrupted by casual gamers that don't even have like 300 wins on their account who think they know what they are talking about?

make it where everyone can read this forum but you have to be a Platinum, Diamond or High level tournament player in order to make posts.

UPDATE: new qualifications you have to have one of these in order to post in the sub-forum i am suggesting

1000 CONQUEST(league or normal) wins
on a team that is in the round of 8 consistently in the tournaments (both EU and NA)
Plat/Diamon/Master in conquest leagues.

Hirez already looks to pro players and high level players to determine game balance coupled with playtests. you wanting to exclude a part of the community just because you assume they are wrong is just silly. even if an idea is misinformed or has a poor basis doesnt mean it loses all merit.
granted i play smite casually because i think ranked only makes people well... like you
granted i get frustrated on the god concept forums if someone rewrites lore to fit their purpose, or keeps begging for cthulu, or mythical creatures that just arent characters, but i do still look at the kits for any promising mechanics.

Hazrauken
07-01-2014, 07:24 PM
what about a really easy to play god who is good for early levels but doesn't carry into competitive or high ranking play?
now its fair to say that true balance is ascertained by people who play god to their maximum potential but in the case above you elite few would say buff the god as he is useless in high level play
but then the god would WRECK in low levels and be an insta pick, the exact same thing you're trying to avoid

you need everyones opinion as learning curves are as important to think about as maximum potential in terms of how fun it is for newer players(which is what makes a game tick)

ViralMarketer
07-02-2014, 07:18 AM
Loving the idea!

Montycash
07-03-2014, 04:58 AM
The idea is terrible as far as it goes... First I suppose or guess that you werent that good in game in the first place and now that you are "skilled" or you are in platinum or diamond division does not make you pro just experienced. As far as I go and read on these comments of yours you just have a big EGO and thats it. HiRez will never open a section where the "elite" can submit their own opinion, its just dumb because everyone plays the game everyone starts been a noob and your solely opinion does not count here or anywhere else.

by the way you should add one more requirement:

100 penta kills+ or 50 quadra kills to even be considerate (sarcasm)

Boatmurdered
07-03-2014, 06:46 AM
So you want to make a sub forum where at most a dozen people can post from the forums? Cause I've been around in game, and on the forums, and the amount of players I would consider both good, and able to actually contribute to balancing discussions that are on, or would make an account for this forum holds steady at less than 10, and that's being very generous. The real amount is closer to 3 at best. If you changed the requirement to just having a good understanding of the game, and being objective then you're still looking at maybe 2 dozen people.

Either way intellectual inbreeding, and group think don't need to be encouraged yo. Hr talks to peeps when they want ideas, and gets feedback from the players they want directly. Trust me they don't care about this forum as the media for conveying...well anything, or receiving info.