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Ecoces
03-28-2014, 08:32 PM
too much defense
too much damage
too much sustain
too much CC
too many escapes

i think its time to rethink and rework the warrior role, you know maybe give it some sort of weakness ... that would probably be a good start.

Taresh
03-28-2014, 08:34 PM
too much defense
too much damage
too much sustain
too much CC
too many escapes

i think its time to rethink and rework the warrior role, you know maybe give it some sort of weakness ... that would probably be a good start.

Beads, Pen, Def.

There you go.

Blackwinged
03-28-2014, 08:39 PM
Agree. For starters, they can do every possible role in Smite.

Support, Damage Carry, Solo, Mid and Jungle. All of them with ease and decent results.

Their kits are also pretty bloated.

Taresh
03-28-2014, 08:43 PM
Agree. For starters, they can do every possible role in Smite.

Support, Damage Carry, Solo, Mid and Jungle. All of them with ease and decent results.

Their kits are also pretty bloated.

Not going to lie, I'd be a pretty sad panda if they nerfed Guan Yu again... his only CC is his dash and stun on his ult. :/ They already nerfed him from his transition from magical to physical and I don't want too see him become useless. I'll always still play him, but it itches me when they touch anything in his kity. :(

MyCheesyName
03-28-2014, 08:47 PM
Don't nerf my dear...oh wait I don't play warriors. Since warrior is not my preferred class, I will now protest for a revelation to be made, and warriors to be nerfed.

Fazion
03-28-2014, 09:05 PM
too much defense
too much damage
too much sustain
too much CC
too many escapes

i think its time to rethink and rework the warrior role, you know maybe give it some sort of weakness ... that would probably be a good start.

Let me go over your points one by one, and I will tell you exactly why... it won't happen.

Too much defense:
That's why they're a warrior. they can do a nice amount of damage, but they can take quite a few hits too. unlike assassins they don't die in an instant and deal a lot less damage.

Too much damage:
Too much damage you say? they are still warriors, not tanks, so they should be able do a nice amount of damage. Most bruisers get a nice chuck of protection, lowering the damage they dish out. however they do alot of damage if they decide to build like a carry, in which case they die just as fast as an assassin, making it balanced.

Too much sustain:
Once again it all depends on what they are building and what playstyle the player has. is he an agressive player who wants to kill quick in teamfights? or is he more of a "sustain" guy, who likes to participate as an extra tank in the teamfight and get out alive.

Too much CC:

-Chaac: A slow and silence/knock-up
-Guan yu: A slow and a stun
-Sun Wukong(who is more of a tank to be honest): A knock-up and a choice between a stun or another knock-up
-Hercules: a stun charge and a pull (sort of)
-Odin: An area that you cant leave(unless jump or blink) and a 50% slow
-Vamana: A small knockup and a slow
-Tyr: Two knockups and another one if you change stances.

As you can see, each of these gods have two CC abilities, and they are usually on a pretty long cooldown. these abilities make them viable in teamfights.

Too many escapes:
Tyr needs to use his ult to get away, chaac has a short range teleport, guan you needs to ult to get away and use his really short charge, odin has an incredible slow jump, sun wukong can be stunned and needs to blow his ult for protection and vamana has a charge (best of all bruisers)



So, what do we conclude? Warriors are sort of a hybrid between assassins and tanks, they have less protection then a tank, but have small escape. they have less damage then an assassin, but more sustain.
To be honest I think they are in a pretty good spot, not one of them really stands out from one another and are all equally played in matches.

Ecoces
03-28-2014, 09:14 PM
@ Fazion ... but what is their weakness? thats the problem they have none a character should not have ALL those things in one role ... you want to give roles a couple fine.

but never all of them you can talk your way through each point and sure they dont have the defense of a tank the damage of an assassin the CC of a support the sustain of a healer

but when you put all 5 of those on one character even at a lesser degree its still too strong. and then on top of that when a few can play multiple roles? its just silly. thats why you see tons of warriors being banned out of todays tourny.

Nyxxie
03-28-2014, 09:15 PM
So, what do we conclude? Warriors are sort of a hybrid between assassins and tanks, they have less protection then a tank, but have small escape. they have less damage then an assassin, but more sustain.
To be honest I think they are in a pretty good spot, not one of them really stands out from one another and are all equally played in matches.
If warriors have such great sustain, why do they need the escapes? If they can soak up so much damage why do they need to dish out so much? You put your finger on the problem, I think. The warriors just feel plain bloated - they can do pretty much everything at the cost of nothing. It feels cheap when you go up against a Tyr, for example, because he'll slice and dice you to death in seconds and get away with 3/4 health. Bit irksome, at least in my opinion.

Fazion
03-28-2014, 09:19 PM
Did you fail to read that they can be played in various ways? as pure burst damage or as sustainable damage dealer? they both have their benefits.
More damage is less sustain, more sustain is less damage.

JesusHatesYou
03-28-2014, 09:23 PM
Its my favorite class because of how good they are. I'd be sad, but not surprised, to see a general nerf to the class.

TheFade
03-28-2014, 09:35 PM
At a basic level, the difference between Guardians and Warriors is warriors have stronger basic attacks and more sustain. I don't know what they trade off for this.

Zàngétsu
03-28-2014, 10:17 PM
@ Fazion ... but what is their weakness? thats the problem they have none a character should not have ALL those things in one role ... you want to give roles a couple fine.

but never all of them you can talk your way through each point and sure they dont have the defense of a tank the damage of an assassin the CC of a support the sustain of a healer

but when you put all 5 of those on one character even at a lesser degree its still too strong. and then on top of that when a few can play multiple roles? its just silly. thats why you see tons of warriors being banned out of todays tourny.

I always think that players who support not nerfing something is because they use that said thing to their own advantage.

I personally have always said that Warriors are the Jack of all trades, Master of none. They can do everything well, but nothing perfect. They have AOE, CC, escapes, defense, damage, sustain and can play any role. Unless you build full offense they will be hard to kill, but if they get the jump on you, it will be hard to survive.

They can do everything, just some players don't want their god of choice to be nerfed. Much like Sprint. Some players STILL believe that sprint is in a good place.

Zàngétsu
03-28-2014, 10:18 PM
At a basic level, the difference between Guardians and Warriors is warriors have stronger basic attacks and more sustain. I don't know what they trade off for this.

A Guardians CC is a better choice. That and they can take more of a beating in the short term, better for initiating a team fight.

Fazion
03-28-2014, 10:23 PM
I always think that players who support not nerfing something is because they use that said thing to their own advantage.

I personally have always said that Warriors are the Jack of all trades, Master of none. They can do everything well, but nothing perfect. They have AOE, CC, escapes, defense, damage, sustain and can play any role. Unless you build full offense they will be hard to kill, but if they get the jump on you, it will be hard to survive.

They can do everything, just some players don't want their god of choice to be nerfed. Much like Sprint. Some players STILL believe that sprint is in a good place.


I main jungle and almost never play warriors, so that is absolutely not the case with me :)

Modavo
03-28-2014, 10:29 PM
A Guardians CC is a better choice. That and they can take more of a beating in the short term, better for initiating a team fight.

By this standard Ares and Wukong need to have their classes switched.

Khallis
03-28-2014, 11:18 PM
I personally have always said that Warriors are the Jack of all trades, Master of none. They can do everything well, but nothing perfect. They have AOE, CC, escapes, defense, damage, sustain and can play any role. Unless you build full offense they will be hard to kill, but if they get the jump on you, it will be hard to survive.



but thats not balanced in a game like this each role needs to have strengths and weaknesses. infact all roles DO have strengths and weaknesses .... except warriors.

Ecoces
03-29-2014, 03:16 PM
LOL this tourny is just showing how stupid Warriors are.

TSM vs CoG - Bans Odin (warrior) Nemisis (warrior) Wukong (warrior) the first 3 picks Tyr (warrior) Chaac (warrior) Vamana (Warrior)

and even Guan (Warrior) picked as support

7 of the 8 warriors picked or banned

Warriors balanced.

Taresh
03-29-2014, 03:33 PM
LOL this tourny is just showing how stupid Warriors are.

TSM vs CoG - Bans Odin (warrior) Nemisis (warrior) Wukong (warrior) the first 3 picks Tyr (warrior) Chaac (warrior) Vamana (Warrior)

and even Guan (Warrior) picked as support

7 of the 8 warriors picked or banned

Warriors balanced.

Don't you dare say Guan Yu is OP. I can barely build Guan to be on par with everyone else late game whether he is support or damage.

Ecoces
03-29-2014, 03:55 PM
Don't you dare say Guan Yu is OP. I can barely build Guan to be on par with everyone else late game whether he is support or damage.

my point is as i said 7 of the 8 warriors were either picked or banned in that game. its ridiculous how stupidly strong warriors as a whole are.

Warriors can do TOO much and need an across the board reworking. they should not be able to do everything in the game

Blackwinged
03-29-2014, 04:05 PM
Don't you dare say Guan Yu is OP. I can barely build Guan to be on par with everyone else late game whether he is support or damage.

He has a point, though. I usually disapprove the "Pros did -> OP PLS NERF" logic, but Smite currently is a Warrior game. They can literally do anything they want, any role, without suffering from weaknesses. Assassins are completely unviable thanks to them.

While true, Guan is the most balanced warrior of the rooster, I wouldn't mind a change (not a nerf) to his kit so that he can't do 3 roles perfectly well.

Corolinth
03-29-2014, 04:11 PM
Pro teams picking warriors first has nothing to do with their power, but rather their versatility.

If I pick Freya early, you know she's going to jungle. You then respond by picking a jungle who wrecks Freya. If I pick Odin, you don't know where he's going. Odin could support, solo, or jungle. Picking a warrior first prevents counter-picks. Sure you could pick gods for all three roles that counter Odin, but then my team just has to decide where we want Odin to lose, and pick gods to win the other two. Alternatively, you don't try to counter Odin and go on about your picks, at which point we end up with a match-up where Odin has the advantage, and that's where my team puts him.

Warriors can't do anything as well as the specialists. They don't deal damage like an assassin, and they don't soak up damage or crowd control like a guardian. Moreover, if warriors build for damage, then they die almost as fast as assassins. If they build tanky, they don't deal much more damage than guardians. Their strength is they get to choose what to be good at. Their weakness is they have to choose what to be good at. They don't get to be good at all of the things they can do at the same time.

Because of their versatility, it behooves pro players to be good with warriors. The jungler is the only one who's really going to practice getting awesome with Thanatos. Banning Thanatos only screws over one person. Banning Odin screws three people.

Ecoces
03-29-2014, 04:46 PM
Game 1 - 7 of the 8 warriors picked or banned
Game 2 - 7 of the 8 warriors picked or banned

its time to rework warriors HiRez

Khallis
03-29-2014, 04:55 PM
Warriors can't do anything as well as the specialists. They don't deal damage like an assassin, and they don't soak up damage or crowd control like a guardian. Moreover, if warriors build for damage, then they die almost as fast as assassins. If they build tanky, they don't deal much more damage than guardians. Their strength is they get to choose what to be good at. Their weakness is they have to choose what to be good at. They don't get to be good at all of the things they can do at the same time.

that is a HUGE strength i dont understand why people think this amount of versatility is a weakness or is acting like a weakness.

a character having damage while not of a assassin, the CC and defense of nearly a tank and the escapability of well they pretty much corner the market on that as well as having massive sustain does not work in a game like this and it is showing in this tourny.

its too powerful a role needs to lack something, every other role has something that they are lacking that has to be made up by others. but not warriors they can do everything except cast spells

Taresh
03-29-2014, 05:07 PM
He has a point, though. I usually disapprove the "Pros did -> OP PLS NERF" logic, but Smite currently is a Warrior game. They can literally do anything they want, any role, without suffering from weaknesses. Assassins are completely unviable thanks to them.

While true, Guan is the most balanced warrior of the rooster, I wouldn't mind a change (not a nerf) to his kit so that he can't do 3 roles perfectly well.

What I would LOVE for them to do is take away that ridiculous progression on his auto that does so much damage and make his kit revolve around his Taolu Assault again. I want Hirez to start focusing on making gods that fit the AD caster roll.

Jokahine
03-29-2014, 05:13 PM
Game 1 - 7 of the 8 warriors picked or banned
Game 2 - 7 of the 8 warriors picked or banned

its time to rework warriors HiRez

They don't need reworks. But a nerf train is coming, i see it!

- Chaac silence: 3s -> 1/1.5/2/2.5/3s silence is one that MUST be done!
- some tweaking to the cooldowns:
Thunder strike: 10 -> 12s cooldown
Torrent: 15s -> 18/17/16/15/14s cooldown
- Also, with his passive his mana costs should be increased:
Thunder strike: 50/55/60/65/70 mana -> 50/60/70/80/90 mana
Torrent: 60/65/70/75/80 mana -> 60/70/80/90/100 mana.

- Cripple needs to stop tyr ult and fearless.
- and a small heal nerf:
45/65/85/105/125 -> 40/55/70/85/100 per target hit.

- Wukong's ult needs more build-up time.
- his cooldowns should get some tweaks:
Master's will: 12s -> 14/13/12/11/10s
Magic cudgel: 10s -> 12s

- Guan is pretty balanced. If something, i'd say nerf cooldowns:
Warrior's will: 14s -> 15s
Conviction: 14s -> 16/15/14/13/12s
Taolu assault: 15s -> 16s
Equaling a total of 0s increased cooldowns at max level, but the cooldowns of the more important abilities would be decreased.

- Nemesis's ult needs a cooldown nerf. 90s -> 120/110/100/90/80s.
- the double dash should only be a single dash, but dash a second time only if a target was hit.

- Odin's ult needs a nerf:
Protections: 25/40/55/70/85 -> 20/30/40/50/60.
Physical power: 35/55/75/95/115 -> 40/55/70/85/100.
Cooldown: 75s -> 90s.
- Another thing that would help balance odin, would be buffing combat blink. Maybe 180 -> 140s cooldown.

-Vamana's passive needs a nerf. Maybe decrease the max ult duration increase to 4s. 10s of ult is enough for vamana.
- the ult numbers should get some tweaking;
Protections: 5/10/15/20/25 -> 4/8/12/16/20
Physical power: 40/65/90/115/140 -> 40/60/80/100/120

Flareb00t
03-29-2014, 05:15 PM
What I would LOVE for them to do is take away that ridiculous progression on his auto that does so much damage and make his kit revolve around his Taolu Assault again. I want Hirez to start focusing on making gods that fit the AD caster roll.

You realise his AA damage is the exact same DPS as someone with a 1/1/1/1 hit progression?

Taresh
03-29-2014, 05:45 PM
You realise his AA damage is the exact same DPS as someone with a 1/1/1/1 hit progression?

No? His last hit on his progression 1.75x damage, where Tyr has a 1.5x on his last hit and I've had times where I hit 650 non crits just with his auto last hit... It's ridiculous.

Jokahine
03-29-2014, 05:48 PM
No? His last hit on his progression 1.75x damage, where Tyr has a 1.5x on his last hit and I've had times where I hit 650 non crits just with his auto last hit... It's ridiculous.

The attack speed also scales. So, you hit harder with 1.5x hits, but it also takes 50% more time until the next auto attack.

As it says ingame, 1.5x damage AND swing time.

ThroatChop
03-29-2014, 05:54 PM
Td:


- Cripple needs to stop tyr ult and fearless.
- and a small heal nerf:
45/65/85/105/125 -> 40/55/70/85/100 per target hit.



Cripple stops Tyr's Fearless in both stances.

Jokahine
03-29-2014, 05:58 PM
Cripple stops Tyr's Fearless in both stances.

Weird, it has not stopped with me :O and i had taken damage from the whirlpool ,and i was not cc immune in any way.

Welcome to the forums!

Taresh
03-29-2014, 05:59 PM
The attack speed also scales. So, you hit harder with 1.5x hits, but it also takes 50% more time until the next auto attack.

As it says ingame, 1.5x damage AND swing time.

Even so, I really wish they would just make his kit more about his 3... and AD casters and what not.

Khallis
03-29-2014, 06:35 PM
They don't need reworks. But a nerf train is coming, i see it!



simple nerfs are going to solve the problem the Warrior role as a whole is just silly. as i have said in other threads no role should have sustain, damage, defense, CC and Escapes.

if you Remove CC and escape how does that hurt Warriors? i mean it hurts them from how they are now because warrior players are used to having just about everything (except maybe globals) in the game on one character. but in terms of balance ... if a character had good damage, good defense and good sustain thats not a weak character.

especially with things like Sprint, Blink and Weakening curse in the game. worst case scenario is that most of these character would either have to build Frostbound hammer of Hasten Fatalis in order to "stick" to people (which is apparently the reason Warriors also need initiations and CC according to players with Warrior icons)

Warriors as a role needs to be looked at and not just slapped with minor nerfs.

Taresh
03-29-2014, 06:39 PM
simple nerfs are going to solve the problem the Warrior role as a whole is just silly. as i have said in other threads no role should have sustain, damage, defense, CC and Escapes.

if you Remove CC and escape how does that hurt Warriors? i mean it hurts them from how they are now because warrior players are used to having just about everything (except maybe globals) in the game on one character. but in terms of balance ... if a character had good damage, good defense and good sustain thats not a weak character.

especially with things like Sprint, Blink and Weakening curse in the game. worst case scenario is that most of these character would either have to build Frostbound hammer of Hasten Fatalis in order to "stick" to people (which is apparently the reason Warriors also need initiations and CC according to players with Warrior icons)

Warriors as a role needs to be looked at and not just slapped with minor nerfs.

Oh wah wah, their role is fine... the problem is hirez isn't utilizing it correctly. Warriors/Bruisers need to focus more on defense and more on minor-medium sustained damage. So what they need to is tweak some stats...

Casanters
03-29-2014, 07:25 PM
Warriors are what's wrong with this game. They negate the usefulness of Assassins, Mages, and Guardians...which is literally everyone else. Nearly all of them have faceroll kits that require little thought with massive pay out regardless of item build. As stated, with kits that do everything, all the CC and sustain you could ever need in addition to massive damage and stats that literally let them do whatever, what's the weakness? I mean, you could play the hybrid card if they were "masters of none" but as it stands, they're just masters of everything, and pretty much every other god is left to suffer.

It kills the meta and kills diversity. It damages the gameplay, and is making me regret putting money into the Godpack. At this point, if I could get a refund, I would.

Taresh
03-29-2014, 07:34 PM
Warriors are what's wrong with this game. They negate the usefulness of Assassins, Mages, and Guardians...which is literally everyone else. Nearly all of them have faceroll kits that require little thought with massive pay out regardless of item build. As stated, with kits that do everything, all the CC and sustain you could ever need in addition to massive damage and stats that literally let them do whatever, what's the weakness? I mean, you could play the hybrid card if they were "masters of none" but as it stands, they're just masters of everything, and pretty much every other god is left to suffer.

It kills the meta and kills diversity. It damages the gameplay, and is making me regret putting money into the Godpack. At this point, if I could get a refund, I would.

I've NEVER had a problem with warriors. I don't know why you people have so much issue with them... Assassin? You nuke people into nothing. Mage? Lol magical damage and pen. As for guardians they do just fine compared to warriors. Seriously if warriors are SOOO annoying too you people, just stop playing. It's truly that simple... Warriors have always been in the game (Bruisers at one time) and always will be.

Khallis
03-29-2014, 08:31 PM
I've NEVER had a problem with warriors. I don't know why you people have so much issue with them... Assassin? You nuke people into nothing. Mage? Lol magical damage and pen. As for guardians they do just fine compared to warriors. Seriously if warriors are SOOO annoying too you people, just stop playing. It's truly that simple... Warriors have always been in the game (Bruisers at one time) and always will be.

great argument "if someone has a problem with the game ... they should just quit playing".

Taresh
03-29-2014, 08:34 PM
great argument "if someone has a problem with the game ... they should just quit playing".

It's true, it really does no use complaining about it... it is what it is and we just have to accept it until Hirez does something about it. :/

Khallis
03-29-2014, 08:42 PM
It's true, it really does no use complaining about it... it is what it is and we just have to accept it until Hirez does something about it. :/

eh hirez has shown they are willing to change things based on feedback ... on some things. the squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say. but i will never subscribe to the idea that if i don't like something about a good game I will quit playing. well something as small as say warriors being really strong right now.

Taresh
03-29-2014, 08:44 PM
eh hirez has shown they are willing to change things based on feedback ... on some things. the squeaky wheel gets the grease as they say. but i will never subscribe to the idea that if i don't like something about a good game I will quit playing. well something as small as say warriors being really strong right now.

Well at least you admit it's a small problem and not a big one xD Some of these people saying "This is the reason the game is unbalanced" which in reality is being dramatic.

Kiaru
03-29-2014, 09:07 PM
Warriors are the super-hero class, they have literally everything every other class type has, lots of CC(guardian), very strong base damage on skills and scaling(mage), 100% scaling autoattacks that allows them to carry(hunter/assassin), and high HP/protection scaling(guardian)+ passives and skills that give them passive protections and damage reduction, "I can't die" buttons, insane sustain, insane mobility(assassin), escapes and leaps(assassin/hunter). Their weakness? They don't have one, they literally do not. They can carry games, they can support, they can tank. They can tank and carry at the same time.

What is their weakness? I would like to know, they really do not have one, AT ALL. They aren't squishy, they don't lack mobility, they aren't weak at ANY stages of the game, they have ZERO downside.

If you watched the 200k tournament, you would have seen how many times warriors were picked for EVERY single role except for mid and ADC, and how often they were picked and how many times they were banned. They are the #1 class.

Warriors need a global nerf, perhaps removing the ability for them to buy any auto-attack DPS related item(Qins executioner rage malice death bringer), maybe nerf their auto-attack power scaling to 50% or less, maybe a nerf to their abilities base damage, maybe a nerf to their abilities damage scaling, maybe a nerf to their protections/health per level, who knows, but they need a GLOBAL nerf, and need it NOW.

Taresh
03-29-2014, 09:12 PM
Warriors are the super-hero class, they have literally everything every other class type has, lots of CC(guardian), very strong base damage on skills and scaling(mage), 100% scaling autoattacks that allows them to carry(hunter/assassin), and high HP/protection scaling(guardian)+ passives and skills that give them passive protections and damage reduction, "I can't die" buttons, insane sustain, insane mobility(assassin), escapes and leaps(assassin/hunter). Their weakness? They don't have one, they literally do not. They can carry games, they can support, they can tank. They can tank and carry at the same time.

What is their weakness? I would like to know, they really do not have one, AT ALL. They aren't squishy, they don't lack mobility, they aren't weak at ANY stages of the game, they have ZERO downside.

If you watched the 200k tournament, you would have seen how many times warriors were picked for EVERY single role except for mid and ADC, and how often they were picked and how many times they were banned. They are the #1 class.

Warriors need a global nerf, perhaps removing the ability for them to buy any auto-attack DPS related item(Qins executioner rage malice death bringer), maybe nerf their auto-attack power scaling to 50% or less, maybe a nerf to their abilities base damage, maybe a nerf to their abilities damage scaling, maybe a nerf to their protections/health per level, who knows, but they need a GLOBAL nerf, and need it NOW.

Let's not limit the items on the items list anymore then they already are... :/

Pickledstew
03-29-2014, 11:41 PM
The only problem I have with assassins is that if built right, they can 1v5 your team for a good minute or two and deal a crap ton of damage before their team comes to wipe you out. Vamana, Wukong and Tyr are the biggest offenders. Guan is at an okay place. Odin's base 50% slow early game is a bit too much, but late game he loses viability imo.

Enskai
03-30-2014, 11:13 AM
Don't think I fully agree.
There are 6 things I think of any immediate care.

Tyrs cleave heal, fearless priority ,Chaac, hastened Fatalis and sprint 3 and the god damn lack of Divine Wrath.
Sun Wukong gets mentioned but I don't know, the knockback/knockup immunity is certainly a pain on his 72 transformations.
Vamana is very iffy as you can straight up slap the baby form if anyone is carrying anti-heal, while he has effectively silenced himself.
Guan yu has no hard CC until he ults and his channel is easily interrupted.
Odin only has passive hp5 of his healing which you easily outdamage by mid-game and need only worry about his protections.
Herc is an immediate divine ruin bait.
Nemesis is bullshit fuck her.
......and Fenrir needs 5 stacks for his stun :P.

Hell as far as guardians go, guardians excluding ares all bring enough CC/Peel to be relevant.
The exceptions are the amount that Tyr, Wukong and Herc bring.

Jokahine
03-30-2014, 01:01 PM
In my opinion, warriors as a concept are balanced becouse they are melee. guardians are melee mages, warriors are melee adc's. it is just, that guardians need buffs, and warriors need some nerfs to specific places. here is what i suggest:


Chaac silence: 3s -> 1/1.5/2/2.5/3s silence is one that MUST be done!
Another thing that cold be done, his slow could be nerfed.
some tweaking to the cooldowns:
Thunder strike: 10 -> 12s cooldown
Torrent: 15s -> 18/17/16/15/14s cooldown
Also, with his passive his mana costs should be increased:
Thunder strike: 50/55/60/65/70 mana -> 50/60/70/80/90 mana
Torrent: 60/65/70/75/80 mana -> 60/70/80/90/100 mana.
His rain could get a small nerf:
Slow: 5/10/15/20/25% -> 4/8/12/16/20%
Attack speed slow: 5/10/15/20/25% -> 4/8/12/16/20%



Cripple needs to stop tyr ult and fearless.
and a small heal nerf:
45/65/85/105/125 -> 40/55/70/85/100 per target hit.



Wukong's ult needs more build-up time.
his cooldowns should get some tweaks:
Master's will: 12s -> 14/13/12/11/10s
Magic cudgel: 10s -> 12s



Guan is pretty balanced. If something, i'd say nerf cooldowns:
Warrior's will: 14s -> 15s
Conviction: 14s -> 16/15/14/13/12s
Taolu assault: 15s -> 16s
Equaling a total of 0s increased cooldowns at max level, but the cooldowns of the more important abilities would be decreased.



Nemesis's ult needs a cooldown nerf. 90s -> 120/110/100/90/80s.
the double dash should only be a single dash, but dash a second time only if a target was hit.



Odin's ult needs a nerf:
Protections: 25/40/55/70/85 -> 20/30/40/50/60.
Physical power: 35/55/75/95/115 -> 40/55/70/85/100.
Cooldown: 75s -> 90s.
Another thing that would help balance odin, would be buffing combat blink. Maybe 180 -> 140s cooldown.



Vamana's passive needs a nerf. Maybe decrease the max ult duration increase to 4s. 10s of ult is enough for vamana.
the ult numbers should get some tweaking;
Protections: 5/10/15/20/25 -> 4/8/12/16/20
Physical power: 40/65/90/115/140 -> 40/60/80/100/120

RyuSenshi
03-30-2014, 01:14 PM
From a guy who likes to play Warrior and Guardian:

For Sun Wukong, I feel the amount of CC he has in his kit for his role is ridiculous. I would nerf the Knockup on his Ox Form a tad and maybe slash a little bit off his Tiger Stun.

Chaac, I do feel his full immunity during his Ulti and the Silence that comes with it is a tad bit long. I would rather see the Ulti be nerfed down to a 2.25 second Silence or have it scale so it is not as destructive in the early game. His free skills, which results in free sustain is a bit much as well. I really have no issue with the free skills thing, but the sustain I feel has bit too high of a scaling. Let's compare his heal to Hercules. Herc's base heal at max rank heals him for 220 + the bonus heal from taking damage. Chaac's heal at max rank 360 + 15% physical scaling. Herc's massive healing can be avoided by not putting so much burst on him while it is up, Chaac's massive healing in inevitable.

For Hercules, I am fairly indifferent. His 2 + 1 combo is pretty much like Sobek, but safer and can pull multiple enemies. Have not played much Herc or played against many lately so I have no other opinion right now.

Guan Yu I feel is probably the most balanced of the brigade. His Heal is not that strong, but strong enough to be acceptable and useful. His 3 is a strong peel. Don't think it does too much damage or too strong IMO. Given the fact he must stick to the target during the full 3 seconds and is channeled. Ultimate is perfect.

Tyr I feel is one the strongest ones in the brigade. His 1 + 2 combo in Assault Stance is just ridiculous. It is strong and could deal with bit of a damage nerf. His Guard Stance 2's sustain is just ridiculous. Can easily heal him to full HP in one swing if he hits 3 targets. The massive scaling on it is IMO the main issue. The 50% physical scaling is way too high. Chaac's only has a 15% scaling. Just because it needs targets to heal off of does not justify such a high scaling. Let's compare it to Sobek's. Sobek's at max Rank heals him only for 60 + 10% of magical power. Now given how much more magical power you can get and that fact he is a Guardian/tank, it is understandable they didn't want an unkillable. But a 125 + 50% physical scaling on someone that can be just as tanky is a bit silly.

Vamana I find is probably the most power creeped of the bunch. His 1 is outclassed by Wukong's 3 Ox Form. Now it does deal a bit more damage, but Sun Wukong's 3 is more versatile. I feel his 2 is great, but feel it is a little bit too expensive. Might cut the costs down just a little bit, but not too much given how well it scales and base damage. His 3 could get a projectile speed boost. Feel it is a bit slow to compete with similar skills.

Odin is probably also one of most balanced of the brigade IMO. His passive is a great laning utility. Extended vision can be invaluable. His 1 is just a basic, but slow leap. Not that big of a deal. His 2 is just an attack speed buff for him and his teammates and gives him +25 physical damage at max. Very strong for pushing objective points and in teamfights, but nothing I have any concern about. His 3 does have that strong slow, base damage and scaling, but has a fairly long swing time. Would not mind seeing him immune to knockups/knockbacks during the swing at least. His Ultimate is just his Ultimate.

Nemesis like Herc am a bit indifferent on. I feel she is the odd one out of the Warriors. Her kit is much more Assassin-like rather than Warrior.

Blackwinged
03-30-2014, 01:20 PM
~post~

Didn't you post that already?

Jokahine
03-30-2014, 01:30 PM
Didn't you post that already?

Did i?

Oh, i did, sorry, i have a bad memory :/


From a guy who likes to play Warrior and Guardian:
For Sun Wukong, I feel the amount of CC he has in his kit for his role is ridiculous. I would nerf the Knockup on his Ox Form a tad and maybe slash a little bit off his Tiger Stun.


No, he only has a 1.4s stun and a knockup. that is not an insane amount of cc. its his escapibility that needs a nerf.



Chaac, I do feel his full immunity during his Ulti and the Silence that comes with it is a tad bit long. I would rather see the Ulti be nerfed down to a 2.25 second Silence or have it scale so it is not as destructive in the early game. His free skills, which results in free sustain is a bit much as well. I really have no issue with the free skills thing, but the sustain I feel has bit too high of a scaling. Let's compare his heal to Hercules. Herc's base heal at max rank heals him for 220 + the bonus heal from taking damage. Chaac's heal at max rank 360 + 15% physical scaling. Herc's massive healing can be avoided by not putting so much burst on him while it is up, Chaac's massive healing in inevitable.


So, would you like it better if chaac's ult was instant? in my opinion it is more balanced with a build-up.
I agree with the silence needing nerfs, i would like to see it be scaling (1/1.5/2/2.5/3s)
Becouse he has free skills, his mana costs should be increased, in my opinion:

thunder strike: 50/60/70/80/90
Torrent: 60/70/80/90/100

Also, herc's heal's healing part is better than chaac's, but chaac has a slow and attack speed slow there too, so it is better.
I agree chaac is too hard to kill. Maybe, the slow in his fog could be nerfed:

5/10/15/20/25% -> 4/8/12/16/20%.




For Hercules, I am fairly indifferent. His 2 + 1 combo is pretty much like Sobek, but safer and can pull multiple enemies. Have not played much Herc or played against many lately so I have no other opinion right now.


Herc is fairly balanced. he should get some mana cost reductions.



Guan Yu I feel is probably the most balanced of the brigade. His Heal is not that strong, but strong enough to be acceptable and useful. His 3 is a strong peel. Don't think it does too much damage or too strong IMO. Given the fact he must stick to the target during the full 3 seconds and is channeled. Ultimate is perfect.


I agree, he is fairly balanced. his cooldowns could be switched a bit, if he is too op:

Conviction: 14s -> 16/15/14/13/12s
Warrior's will: 14 -> 15s
Taolu assault: 15 -> 16s




Tyr I feel is one the strongest ones in the brigade. His 1 + 2 combo in Assault Stance is just ridiculous. It is strong and could deal with bit of a damage nerf. His Guard Stance 2's sustain is just ridiculous. Can easily heal him to full HP in one swing if he hits 3 targets. The massive scaling on it is IMO the main issue. The 50% physical scaling is way too high. Chaac's only has a 15% scaling. Just because it needs targets to heal off of does not justify such a high scaling. Let's compare it to Sobek's. Sobek's at max Rank heals him only for 60 + 10% of magical power. Now given how much more magical power you can get and that fact he is a Guardian/tank, it is understandable they didn't want an unkillable. But a 125 + 50% physical scaling on someone that can be just as tanky is a bit silly.


Chaac's heal is always 30% per second * 6 -> 180% scaling. Tyr's heal's scaling is only 150% the scaling is not op, the base heal needs a nerf, not the scaling. maybe, 40/55/70/85/100 per target hit.
Sobek's heal is not really a heal, it is a healing debuff.
Also, about tyr's 1+2 combo, it is his trademark, and only does a lot of damage early on/if he is building assassin. also, it requires tyr to be in a good position to use it.
If cripple would stop tyr's ult and the base heal would be nerfed, he would be a lot more balanced.



Vamana I find is probably the most power creeped of the bunch. His 1 is outclassed by Wukong's 3 Ox Form. Now it does deal a bit more damage, but Sun Wukong's 3 is more versatile. I feel his 2 is great, but feel it is a little bit too expensive. Might cut the costs down just a little bit, but not too much given how well it scales and base damage. His 3 could get a projectile speed boost. Feel it is a bit slow to compete with similar skills.


Have you watched 200k? vamana is op, not in a position where he should be buffed. here is what i would like to see:
Vamana's passive needs a nerf. Maybe decrease the max ult duration increase to 4s. 10s of ult is enough for vamana.
the ult numbers should get some tweaking;

Protections: 5/10/15/20/25 -> 4/8/12/16/20
Physical power: 40/65/90/115/140 -> 40/60/80/100/120.




Odin is probably also one of most balanced of the brigade IMO. His passive is a great laning utility. Extended vision can be invaluable. His 1 is just a basic, but slow leap. Not that big of a deal. His 2 is just an attack speed buff for him and his teammates and gives him +25 physical damage at max. Very strong for pushing objective points and in teamfights, but nothing I have any concern about. His 3 does have that strong slow, base damage and scaling, but has a fairly long swing time. Would not mind seeing him immune to knockups/knockbacks during the swing at least. His Ultimate is just his Ultimate.


Same as with vamana, have you watched the 200k? Odin is picked or banned in almost every game. He needs nerfs, not buffs. i would like to see his ultimate tuned down a bit:

Protections: 25/40/55/70/85 -> 20/30/40/50/60.
Physical power: 35/55/75/95/115 -> 40/55/70/85/100.
Cooldown: 75s -> 90s.

Another thing that would help balance odin, would be buffing combat blink. Maybe 180 -> 140s cooldown, that seems fine.
And the last thing, in my opinion it is not fine for odin to have an 50% slow at lvl 1. I'd like to see the slow at 25/30/35/40/45%



Nemesis like Herc am a bit indifferent on. I feel she is the odd one out of the Warriors. Her kit is much more Assassin-like rather than Warrior.

She might be more assassin-like, but 200k has taught us that she is op.i would like to see his double dash be like in the god release video, allow second dash only if she hits an target. Maybe a small ult cooldown nerf:
90s -> 120/110/100/90/80s.

Ecoces
03-30-2014, 02:54 PM
Spam

your ideas suck stop spamming them in every Warrior post.

here is what HiRez really needs to do remove hard CC from warriors and nerf the hell out of their sustain.

Odin - Scale his slow (15/20/25/30/35)

Tyr - Change fearless somehow stupidest move in the game, nerf the hell out of his healing

Wukong - drop the stun from the tiger form its already high damage, give masters will a scaling slow like odin. make the start up of his ult longer and allow him to be CCed during it. he has enough escapes

Chaac - nerf his heal, scale the silence from his ult and get rid of the stupid ass invulnerability during his ults start up

Nemesis - put her ult on a charge up timer or something make it where she actually has to aim the damn thing in order to get such a powerful advantage.

Hercules - get rid of the knockback, make his earthbreaker slow and if you get hit within the "special area" you are crippled. Driving strike will only stun when he is under 50% again.

Guan Yu - lower his heal

Vamana - lower the heal on his ult and reduce the time while he is in big baby form.

BUFFs

Wukong improve the damage on Cudgel give him better clear

Herc lower his mana costs slightly


there warriors fixed

Jokahine
03-30-2014, 05:13 PM
your ideas suck stop spamming them in every Warrior post.

here is what HiRez really needs to do remove hard CC from warriors and nerf the hell out of their sustain.

Odin - Scale his slow (15/20/25/30/35)

Tyr - Change fearless somehow stupidest move in the game, nerf the hell out of his healing

Wukong - drop the stun from the tiger form its already high damage, give masters will a scaling slow like odin. make the start up of his ult longer and allow him to be CCed during it. he has enough escapes

Chaac - nerf his heal, scale the silence from his ult and get rid of the stupid ass invulnerability during his ults start up

Nemesis - put her ult on a charge up timer or something make it where she actually has to aim the damn thing in order to get such a powerful advantage.

Hercules - get rid of the knockback, make his earthbreaker slow and if you get hit within the "special area" you are crippled. Driving strike will only stun when he is under 50% again.

Guan Yu - lower his heal

Vamana - lower the heal on his ult and reduce the time while he is in big baby form.

BUFFs

Wukong improve the damage on Cudgel give him better clear

Herc lower his mana costs slightly


there warriors fixed

Well, i have to say, your ideas suck.
- Wukong would be useless after those nerfs
- Guan's heal is already **** tier. It definitedly does not need nerfs.
- Hercules is balanced, why do you want to nerf him?
- Charging up nemesis ult would not balance him at all.
- Tyr's fearless is his signature move. It is a great ability, but the only thing that he has going for himself. I do not think removing it would be good for tyr.
- If you only made odin's slow scale, he would still have his op ult in a 75s cooldown, and would still be op.

The only good ideas there are the ones that i suggested, aswell.
-chaac silence scaling, and a nerf to his heal
-vamana ult reduced duration
-make wukong's build-up time in ult longer

Also, i am not spamming. Clearly you have no idea what spamming means.

MikalMirkas
03-30-2014, 05:22 PM
your ideas suck stop spamming them in every Warrior post.

here is what HiRez really needs to do remove hard CC from warriors and nerf the hell out of their sustain.

Odin - Scale his slow (15/20/25/30/35)

Tyr - Change fearless somehow stupidest move in the game, nerf the hell out of his healing

Wukong - drop the stun from the tiger form its already high damage, give masters will a scaling slow like odin. make the start up of his ult longer and allow him to be CCed during it. he has enough escapes

Chaac - nerf his heal, scale the silence from his ult and get rid of the stupid ass invulnerability during his ults start up

Nemesis - put her ult on a charge up timer or something make it where she actually has to aim the damn thing in order to get such a powerful advantage.

Hercules - get rid of the knockback, make his earthbreaker slow and if you get hit within the "special area" you are crippled. Driving strike will only stun when he is under 50% again.

Guan Yu - lower his heal

Vamana - lower the heal on his ult and reduce the time while he is in big baby form.

BUFFs

Wukong improve the damage on Cudgel give him better clear

Herc lower his mana costs slightly


there warriors fixed
nope

Chaac: yeah this is fine

Odin: 30/35/40/45/50 slow, cooldowns adjusted on his ultimate to 93s/90s/87s/84s/81s OR Combat Blink's cooldown decreased by 15s

Hercules: he's fine

Guan: he's fine

Vamana: he's fine

Wukong: cooldowns do not decrease when he's in his cloud (this stops his lolbrbimabirdlolololfuckyouguys) and buff his cooldowns as compensation

Tyr: Heals nerfed by 60% on Power Cleave

Nemesis needs a fix on her 3 and her 4 which is not up to me to decide how it's fixed

Kiaru
03-30-2014, 05:58 PM
First grand finals game, 7/8 warriors picked or banned. A ban counts as a pick, Tyr was first pick on Dig's side, a warrior. Second game, 7/8 picks and bans were warriors, first two picks warriors(chaac and Nemesis.

Game1 Tyr carried early game, Vamana late game. Game2, nemesis carried the entire game.

RyuSenshi
03-30-2014, 06:02 PM
@Jokahine: Haven't really been following the 200k at all (Marvel Puzzle Quest distracting me much more than SMITE).

You do make fair points. Kind of also explains the small influx of Odins and Vamanas I am seeing.

Don't think buffing Combat Blink will really change much at all (I personally dislike having too many get-out-of jail free cards though) vs Odin. I feel there are better actives most of the time. I do agree that the bonuses could be toned down a little bit though.

As for my point with Chaac, I didn't really mean instant. I forgot to mention shorter charge up AND reduced damage.

Then again, remember my opinion is also somewhat biased too given how I play Warrior and Guardian a lot.

Ecoces
03-30-2014, 06:17 PM
Hopefully HiRez saw what happened in the tourny and realize that warriors are way too strong for this game right now.

Ecoces
03-31-2014, 01:00 AM
Well, i have to say, your ideas suck.
- Wukong would be useless after those nerfs
- Guan's heal is already **** tier. It definitedly does not need nerfs.
- Hercules is balanced, why do you want to nerf him?
- Charging up nemesis ult would not balance him at all.
- Tyr's fearless is his signature move. It is a great ability, but the only thing that he has going for himself. I do not think removing it would be good for tyr.
- If you only made odin's slow scale, he would still have his op ult in a 75s cooldown, and would still be op.

The only good ideas there are the ones that i suggested, aswell.
-chaac silence scaling, and a nerf to his heal
-vamana ult reduced duration
-make wukong's build-up time in ult longer

Also, i am not spamming. Clearly you have no idea what spamming means.

Ive already seen you post this same exact crap in multiple threads and hell even twice in this thread your ideas suck and you don't know what you are talking about.

as for hercules being balanced, the only reason he is not picked is because how stupidly strong the other warriors are. Warriors should not have hard CC at all thats what my changes accomplish. they make it so warriors are put back into either the solo lane or the jungle.

and there is not such thing as a "signature move" get that nonsense out of here.

Kiaru
03-31-2014, 01:31 AM
Guanyu is the only balanced warrior because he has 1 form of CC and it's a short stun on a long cooldown. He has almost no escapes(his ultimate has a long cooldown and his dash is very short), a very balanced heal, no leap, and his damage isn't completely broken. Please make more warriors like Guanyu, and less like Tyr.

ThyMushroom
03-31-2014, 06:40 AM
The warrior problem really wasn't that big of a deal before all the mass item changes that have been happening in the last 2 months. Guardians lost focused voidstone, a HUGE nerf to many builds. Athena and Sobek were being played regularly before this mess. Meanwhile warriors gained shifters, the ability to equip both shields if they want, and more flexibility in the item trees for their most picked items.

These deleted items need to be put back in some way or another. Not sure what hirez was thinking when they removed all those items...of course deleting a bunch of options for the game just before release is going to break certain characters and I believe warriors are the biggest example.

Ecoces
03-31-2014, 02:42 PM
The warrior problem really wasn't that big of a deal before all the mass item changes that have been happening in the last 2 months. Guardians lost focused voidstone, a HUGE nerf to many builds. Athena and Sobek were being played regularly before this mess. Meanwhile warriors gained shifters, the ability to equip both shields if they want, and more flexibility in the item trees for their most picked items.

These deleted items need to be put back in some way or another. Not sure what hirez was thinking when they removed all those items...of course deleting a bunch of options for the game just before release is going to break certain characters and I believe warriors are the biggest example.

no support oriented Guardian built Focused Voidstone for conquest. know what you are talking about before you post.

ThyMushroom
04-01-2014, 08:48 PM
no support oriented Guardian built Focused Voidstone for conquest. know what you are talking about before you post.

But now that MAGES don't have it the effects of voidstone in the overall team has been nerfed, since you can no longer stack the power of having a mage with the focused +25pen and a Guardian with the aura hitting someone.

Think about the big picture before being snarky.

Sinistaaah
04-01-2014, 09:56 PM
Guanyu is the only balanced warrior because he has 1 form of CC and it's a short stun on a long cooldown. He has almost no escapes(his ultimate has a long cooldown and his dash is very short), a very balanced heal, no leap, and his damage isn't completely broken. Please make more warriors like Guanyu, and less like Tyr.

Coming from the person sporting an avatar of a god with a cripple root against 3 potential targets, a huge AoE slow instanuke that takes up nearly the width of the whole lane, a tp + ward ability, and CC immune bonus movement speed ult that has an AoE nuke on it which you can repeatedly do provided you net kill each hit. Yeah... please... tell me more about the warrior class being completely overpowered.

Someone in the early pages of this thread had a great reply which I have said before on these forums and also on the reddit. The biggest reason warriors are such high priority in tournaments is they are both ambiguous and versatile, allowing teams flexibility and potential advantages straight from the picking stage. The Wukong bans against TSM were probably way more about respect for Trixtanks Wukong than simply banning Wukong.

Is Warrior class strong? Of course. Can they do anything? Yeah, and that's kinda the point. But, they are not the best at any one thing. Hunters AAs hit harder. Guardians scale a lot better with defense items and base stats and their CCs are more potent. Assassins and Mages have more burst. Assassins also generally have better escapability. And Mages have way better waveclear. It's the role. Warriors are all about versatility. Take that away and this game will lose a lot of its dynamics quick.

Also, you can thank HiRez for nerfing HoG for a big reason you are seeing such a rise in popularity from warriors.

GoldenSkill
04-02-2014, 04:04 PM
i have a better idea, just nerf adcs and mages. so much aoe damage that can kill you in no time if you don't build something to counter. even magic def doesn't help much against pene. and even if i bought phys def for the adc, he will buy pene and crit and outplay me with his ranged cc. and kill me with 5 shots. at least warriors need some time to kill someone :rolleyes:

Kiaru
04-02-2014, 04:06 PM
Coming from the person sporting an avatar of a god with a cripple root against 3 potential targets, a huge AoE slow instanuke that takes up nearly the width of the whole lane, a tp + ward ability, and CC immune bonus movement speed ult that has an AoE nuke on it which you can repeatedly do provided you net kill each hit. Yeah... please... tell me more about the warrior class being completely overpowered.

Did you seriously just attack my entire post because of my avatar on a forum, which is a god I have played less than 15 times? When there is limited avatars and not every god has one so I have very few to pick from, and I just like how her avatar looks compared to other options currently on the forums and find her VP and her adorable? Please go away.

Zavern
04-02-2014, 06:09 PM
Warriors either need to

(A) Lose a bit of their high/massive sustain and deal more damage than a Guardian, but less that a ADC, Mage, and Assassin and have less protections than a Guardian, but more than a ADC, Mage, and Assassin.

(B) Lose some hard CC. Warriors like Hercules have a 1.5 second stun. Wukong has 1.4, Chaac has a 3 second silence and Guan Yu has a 1.5 second stun. They can do everything. They can supply the CC that Supports need to do, but they can do more. They can go in a fight, take down the enemies HP and still get out better than a Guardian can. They can potentially deal more damage than a Mage whose entire role is to deal high/rapid damage. T

Khallis
04-02-2014, 06:24 PM
Did you seriously just attack my entire post because of my avatar on a forum, which is a god I have played less than 15 times? When there is limited avatars and not every god has one so I have very few to pick from, and I just like how her avatar looks compared to other options currently on the forums and find her VP and her adorable? Please go away.

LOL change your forum icon to Wukong ... but then you might be labelled as a traitor to warrior players.

gofnar
04-02-2014, 09:07 PM
Too much defense: they are close range,they must have the resilience to take damage, helping extend an engagement, because my premise is that warriors should shine in long engagement, out-shining assasins that failt to burst down targets .or mages that burnt their abilities.

Too much damage: Warriors need dps to be a treath, they kinda have to be the anti-carries, the gods that can go to the face of and adc or mage with high burst and lock and hurt them, otherwise they would be ignored.

This is what i think is part of the support warrior-guadian problem, warriors can build full proteccions and be a treath with base damage of their abilityes, full proteccions guardians cant be a treath if their miss their cc or if it is denied with beads, they become harmless walking aa body-blocking gods.

Too much sustain : They need sustain to face mages in the solo that can heal minion waves, and they need high sustain to fulfill exceling in long engagement situations

Too much cc: a lot of gods have cc, we have a adc carry that should use mostly auto- atacks with and 1.8 second stun

Too many escapes: This is the part that i think might be off and seems strange to me, how some guardians lack dashes when they are supposed to be the one that engage first.

I think a huge part of the problem is that having beads, sprint and aegis as actives ingame, all gods can disrupt powerful busty combos that are a big part of mages and assasins kits, while warriors provide more sustained dps and innate tankyness, while also being able to burst key targets such as the enemy adc or mid mage.

I would much prefer some minor buffs to guardians kits instead of nerfing warriors.

Seireiden
04-03-2014, 01:47 AM
They NEED to be toned down, especially Nemesis. A Warrior, any warrior for that matter, should never do as much damage as an assassin or resist as much as Guardian. They're supposed to be in between Hunters and Guardians, but right now, almost every Warrior can outclass all of them.

HexisCopiae
04-03-2014, 10:57 AM
These forums are amazing, the ability to check profiles to garner a general understanding of what would bring them to make these posts. Lets for example, assume but one of their soft/hard cc is removed. How shall we make up for their synergy in teams? I'll just leave a small pondering with but one hard/soft CC removed.

-Chaac...lets remove the point of his 3 slowing anyone down, its obvious he can catch them with that marvelous 1+2 combo.

-Guan Yu, get a load of this guy. He heals, he slows, he shreds, and he stuns! Lets get rid of his slowing during his ult, with all that damage he doesn't need people staying there taking the abuse as he steers his horse.

-Hercules...who was this guy again? I guess people don't refer to him when they speak of "all warriors". But hey, if we remove his 1's knockback at least he'll have a reason to keep his 3 on at all times.

-Nemesis! Yes, let us give needs more nerfs to her skills outside ultimate. Lets remove that slow on her 2 and have her fighting like Old Kali until she ults.

-Odin has to blink/burn his escape to initiate, if he lost the slow on his 3 then he becomes a walking punching bag. I suppose with so many people clamoring to beat him up when he turns on his 2, his ultimate will now land easier.

-Sun Wukong has the ability to poke, but if you removed the hard CC on his Tiger what exactly is he going to do? Ox will knock them away from him, which is counter productive unless you like smacking people with a stick. If tiger had its stun removed I suppose he can always try to use Master's Will to peel them off for 0.5 sec. His passive works at 35% health, may as well give a reason for it to activate right?

-Tyr has enough sustain with that selfish heal on Defense 2. Let us remove the push on his Assault 1 so his Assault 2 has no real reason for juggling and serves as damage only. The new combo shall be blink -> Defense 2 -> Defense 1 -> 3 -> Assault 2.

-Vamana, well what do we have here? The CC from that very slow moving projectile or his infamous escape/initiate so he can spin around enemies in order to prepare for their version of Brazzers?

Edit: Tl;dr Leave the balancing to Hi-Rez unless you have better ideas in regards to their CC

Ecoces
04-03-2014, 02:05 PM
These forums are amazing, the ability to check profiles to garner a general understanding of what would bring them to make these posts.

yeah they are its very cool to be able to check profiles and see someone is an Arena player so their posts about the game can be completely ignored.

Zavern
04-03-2014, 03:38 PM
-Chaac...lets remove the point of his 3 slowing anyone down, its obvious he can catch them with that marvelous 1+2 combo.

Very few people talked about this, and when they did it was an opinion on the side. It wasn't apart of the main discussion. The part people were talking about was his massive protection buff, his healing and his ultimate that has a 3 second silence and damage immunity.


-Guan Yu, get a load of this guy. He heals, he slows, he shreds, and he stuns! Lets get rid of his slowing during his ult, with all that damage he doesn't need people staying there taking the abuse as he steers his horse.

The only problem people brought up was his ultimate having a 1.5 second stun.


-Hercules...who was this guy again? I guess people don't refer to him when they speak of "all warriors". But hey, if we remove his 1's knockback at least he'll have a reason to keep his 3 on at all times.

Once again, something people didn't talk about that you just decided to bring up. The only things that had been talked about was the damage on his ultimate, which was me and that was a half hearted thing.


-Odin has to blink/burn his escape to initiate, if he lost the slow on his 3 then he becomes a walking punching bag. I suppose with so many people clamoring to beat him up when he turns on his 2, his ultimate will now land easier.

The only time Odin's slow was even mention was giving him scaling similar to Nemesis and Ao Kuang. No one ever mentioned removing it in this thread.


-Tyr has enough sustain with that selfish heal on Defense 2. Let us remove the push on his Assault 1 so his Assault 2 has no real reason for juggling and serves as damage only. The new combo shall be blink -> Defense 2 -> Defense 1 -> 3 -> Assault 2.

If a Warrior can heal up to 600 every few seconds, then there is a problem. You could argue that it needs 3 targets for the full heal, but it is only 3 targets. That really isn't that hard to come by. Also once again you brought up something that wasn't apart of the main discussion. The only problem with his charges is that there is currently a bug preventing you from using Beads/Aphrodite's ultimate to immune them.



Your sarcasm is pathetic and unneeded. We weren't talking about completely removing their CC, just toning it down. Currently a Warrior can match the damage of the ADCs and the CC of Supports along with high sustain. One role shouldn't be able to do almost every role. Your sarcasm is unneeded and pathetic. It seems you simply took what you wanted from these posts and put them together in your head and shoved whatever came out of your ass into your post. If you did indeed take some of these ideas from other threads, don't post them on here.

Jokahine
04-03-2014, 03:43 PM
yeah, tyr heal should be 10/20/30/40/50 +15% and max 6 targets hit.

KAKLAW
04-03-2014, 05:31 PM
Only a few aren't complete cancers for SMITE with how they make all guardians except Geb and Athena (but they all have bullshit on them as well) obsolete or they outstrip assassins in utility and damage. Merc is a good jungler but he can't compete against Tyr's burst, sustain and cc or Nemesis and her everything. Only Freya can but just because of the way she is built.

Kiaru
04-03-2014, 05:36 PM
3 warrior teams are already becoming common in diamond/plat ranked(Jungler/Support/Solo) and at least 2 of the bans is a warrior every game.

Blackwinged
04-03-2014, 06:06 PM
yeah, tyr heal should be 10/20/30/40/50 +15% and max 6 targets hit.

Good luck trying to get 4+ targets with that. Leave at 3 and just nerf it or reduce base and increase scaling.

HexisCopiae
04-03-2014, 10:42 PM
yeah they are its very cool to be able to check profiles and see someone is an Arena player so their posts about the game can be completely ignored.
Yes as if Arena isn't predominantly all about team coordinated fights, something that we obviously don't do when rotating in Conquest, right?

It's interesting you say my post should be completely ignored based on my preference for Arena, considering you have nearly a third less conquest games than me with a ton of losses...I pray that was your attempt to smurf but then losing to newbies would of been too sad.



Your sarcasm is pathetic and unneeded. We weren't talking about completely removing their CC, just toning it down. Currently a Warrior can match the damage of the ADCs and the CC of Supports along with high sustain. One role shouldn't be able to do almost every role. Your sarcasm is unneeded and pathetic. It seems you simply took what you wanted from these posts and put them together in your head and shoved whatever came out of your ass into your post. If you did indeed take some of these ideas from other threads, don't post them on here.
The point of it was to show that it isn't their CC that is the issue, its the damage output.

If any of their CC is removed it cripples them as it is a required part of their kit to function. Apparently that went over your head as you attempted to believe I took ideas from other threads when your post commented on needing hard CC removal, and a few others saying they need it to be toned down. I can't even fathom why you would use Hercules as an example of a Warrior that can "do everything" when he's effectively turned into garbage by a weakening curse and is completely inferior to Sobek or Ymir as a support.

Ecoces
04-04-2014, 12:13 AM
Yes as if Arena isn't predominantly all about team coordinated fights, something that we obviously don't do when rotating in Conquest, right?

and there is your problem you think youre casual playstyle is on par with conquest because of you teamfight. the reality is that arena has no depth no tactics no strategy compared to conquest that I just laugh when arena players think they know what they are talking about.

this is just another example for why i think there needs to be a forum dedicated to platinum/diamond conquest players. A place where we can discuss balance issues without having Mr Hardcore Arena or Mr Awesome Assault player coming in and thinking they know what they are talking about.

Khallis
04-04-2014, 12:20 AM
If any of their CC is removed it cripples them as it is a required part of their kit to function.

so i guess we should buff mages HP and defense because a dead mage is an ineffective mage and mages are extremely squishy in this game. Since they need to be alive in order to do damage being squishy is counter productive. So giving them more HP and defense would be required to make their kit function amirite? am i doing this right?

you know what the worst case scenario would be if HiRez removed ALL of warriors CC (which mind you i dont see anyone saying they should remove it all) most warriors would have to build into frostbound hammer, fatalis or Creeping curse. so warriors would have to build into items to make up for a deficiency ... just like every other friggen role out there.

pieface
04-04-2014, 05:57 AM
1. Nerf base values on warriors. This means full tank builds don't hurt as much.
2. Increase scaling to compensate. This means full damage builds will still hurt, but tank Tyr can't kill you with a 1+2.

HexisCopiae
04-04-2014, 08:56 AM
and there is your problem you think youre casual playstyle is on par with conquest because of you teamfight. the reality is that arena has no depth no tactics no strategy compared to conquest that I just laugh when arena players think they know what they are talking about.

this is just another example for why i think there needs to be a forum dedicated to platinum/diamond conquest players. A place where we can discuss balance issues without having Mr Hardcore Arena or Mr Awesome Assault player coming in and thinking they know what they are talking about.
How you came to the conclusion that a team fight in arena is completely different to a team fight in Conquest outside singular rotations and objectives is beyond me. All of them come down to whom you whittle down, who is out of position, and who is the general threat to eliminate quickly. In Conquest, that is what happens once a team has acquired Fire Giant and chooses to take down Towers/Phoenix. You either fight them or split push and team fights are what mainly occur.

I don't even know how to respond to you attempting to diminish the value of a post based on player preference instead of their God usage and general knowledge. It's like saying Gitsticker who is one of the top 3 in Joust wouldn't know anything about God balance and should have his posts ignored despite having done a plethora of 1v1's and most likely knows all their ins and outs.

However since you wish to bring that up, where is your Conq League? Is that a smurf you're on, and if so how did you lose games to newbies on it?

so i guess we should buff mages HP and defense because a dead mage is an ineffective mage and mages are extremely squishy in this game. Since they need to be alive in order to do damage being squishy is counter productive. So giving them more HP and defense would be required to make their kit function amirite? am i doing this right?

you know what the worst case scenario would be if HiRez removed ALL of warriors CC (which mind you i dont see anyone saying they should remove it all) most warriors would have to build into frostbound hammer, fatalis or Creeping curse. so warriors would have to build into items to make up for a deficiency ... just like every other friggen role out there.
Removing any of their CC hurts them severely when it comes to initiating, I made a post showing this but in an extreme manner in response to those saying some should be toned down or removed.

Warriors are not like mages in the slightest for comparison, if you're out of position as a mage during a team fight that is on the mage. However if said mage was out of position and a warrior attempted to initiate on them with any of the CC's I pointed out gone, they would have no real success. It isn't as if mage's can't beat warriors at all 1v1 and I've yet to actually see a warrior outside Nemesis trade with a hunter as some say they can do unless said hunter player is caught off guard or is simply inferior and was outplayed.

Edit: From what I've gathered the main problem is the overusage of Sprint and the base damage values some Warriors have, but in the end I have not seen anything that directly shows gods like Bacchus or Ymir to be completely inferior support wise. IMO people are simply basing it on the tournament or the popular meta preference to trade utility for damage.

Jokahine
04-04-2014, 08:59 AM
Good luck trying to get 4+ targets with that. Leave at 3 and just nerf it or reduce base and increase scaling.

fearless and then heal-cleave?

Firellius
04-04-2014, 09:38 AM
and there is your problem you think youre casual playstyle is on par with conquest because of you teamfight. the reality is that arena has no depth no tactics no strategy compared to conquest that I just laugh when arena players think they know what they are talking about.

this is just another example for why i think there needs to be a forum dedicated to platinum/diamond conquest players. A place where we can discuss balance issues without having Mr Hardcore Arena or Mr Awesome Assault player coming in and thinking they know what they are talking about.

I'm really glad that Hi-Rez seems to strive more for actual balance, rather than "OMG hardcore e-sports!" stuff. Conquest is the competitive mode, Arena is the gamemode that actually resembles a game. Something that, you know, is played for fun.

You need to get off your high horse and accept that Arena forces you to learn teamfight values. Knowing your positioning, knowing your targeting, knowing your movement and your abilities, those are key in Arena fights. Not much different from Conquest.

Jokahine
04-04-2014, 09:50 AM
I'm really glad that Hi-Rez seems to strive more for actual balance, rather than "OMG hardcore e-sports!" stuff. Conquest is the competitive mode, Arena is the gamemode that actually resembles a game. Something that, you know, is played for fun.

You need to get off your high horse and accept that Arena forces you to learn teamfight values. Knowing your positioning, knowing your targeting, knowing your movement and your abilities, those are key in Arena fights. Not much different from Conquest.

the game MUST NOT be balanced around arena and other non-conquest modes. i too am extremely annoyed of the "arena pro” and ”assault pro” groups who think the game should be balanced around their favourite gamemode instaed of the gamemode 90% of players play exclusively.

HexisCopiae
04-04-2014, 09:59 AM
the game MUST NOT be balanced around arena and other non-conquest modes. i too am extremely annoyed of the "arena pro” and ”assault pro” groups who think the game should be balanced around their favourite gamemode instaed of the gamemode 90% of players play exclusively.
He never said anything about wanting it to be balanced around Arena, in fact he clearly stated that Conquest is the main competitive mode. What is up with people jumping to conclusions and trying to insult subtly without reading a post in its entirety?

Jokahine
04-04-2014, 10:07 AM
He never said anything about wanting it to be balanced around Arena, in fact he clearly stated that Conquest is the main competitive mode. What is up with people jumping to conclusions and trying to insult subtly without reading a post in its entirety?

sorry, i was not trying to offend him. let me re-read what he said.

ok, looks like he said that games should be balanced after casual, not competitive. that is equally as wrong.

yoavsnake
04-04-2014, 10:11 AM
I reaally hope the nerf will make them balanced... And not super UP like HiRez did a few times..

HexisCopiae
04-04-2014, 10:13 AM
sorry, i was not trying to offend him. let me re-read what he said.

ok, looks like he said that games should be balanced after casual, not competitive. that is equally as wrong.
You said you re-read but he never said that either, he said he's glad they strive for actual balance as opposed to basing it entirely on what is displayed during E-Sports related activities. Perhaps you're tired...

Jokahine
04-04-2014, 10:21 AM
You said you re-read but he never said that either, he said he's glad they strive for actual balance as opposed to basing it entirely on what is displayed during E-Sports related activities. Perhaps you're tired...

but games should be balanced around e-sports!

HexisCopiae
04-04-2014, 10:29 AM
but games should be balanced around e-sports!
If Smite balanced gods based on solely what occurred during Pax, Odin would be nerfed more severely as priority and that guy is all about auto attacking those he 3's or ult'd on, while gods who greatly need buffs like Arachne would still remain stagnant.

Edit:
Mercury wasn't even chosen and I'm sure we all know how powerful that God is if he ever gets his core done...now imagine him buffed based on not being picked. If Bacchus had his mana reduced and made more viable, he'd take more and deal more dmg than all other guardians with better peel, anti healing, and a crazy CC in his ult to boot. The very fact he's so mana intensive is what makes people shy away from playing him.

Jokahine
04-04-2014, 10:38 AM
If Smite balanced gods based on solely what occurred during Pax, Odin would be nerfed more severely and that guy is all about auto attacking those he 3's or ult'd on, while gods who greatly need buffs like Arachne would still remain stagnant.

Hell, Mercury wasn't even chosen and I'm sure we all know how powerful that God is if he ever gets his core done...now imagine him buffed based on not being picked. If Bacchus had his mana reduced and made more viable, he'd take more and deal more dmg than all other guardians with better peel, anti healing, and a crazy CC in his ult to boot.

balancing around e-sports means nerfing the most popular gods and buffing unused ones, like arachne.
of course, you buff them based on their current strenght and by using your brains, it is not that ”this god is unused, lets completedly break him”.

HexisCopiae
04-04-2014, 10:42 AM
balancing around e-sports means nerfing the most popular gods and buffing unused ones, like arachne.
of course, you buff them based on their current strenght and by using your brains, it is not that ”this god is unused, lets completedly break him”.
Which is what I just said...only that they would find ways to incorporate said unused gods to be able to play. Unless they altered his kit, Mercury's 1, and his natural hit progression combined with 2 makes him one of if not the most powerful duelist.

Arachne is still stagnant despite all this, and she's only generally used by people who are optimistic about her.

Khallis
04-04-2014, 12:42 PM
Removing any of their CC hurts them severely when it comes to initiating, I made a post showing this but in an extreme manner in response to those saying some should be toned down or removed.

as i said worst case scenario is you may have to counterbuild in order to make up for the deficiency. but everyone else does so why shouldn't warriors. I am an advocate that Warriors should have no hard CC unless its their ult. And i believe in scaling, odin should not get a 50% slow just because he put one point into a skill (no one should unless its an ult)


Warriors are not like mages in the slightest for comparison, if you're out of position as a mage during a team fight that is on the mage. However if said mage was out of position and a warrior attempted to initiate on them with any of the CC's I pointed out gone, they would have no real success. It isn't as if mage's can't beat warriors at all 1v1 and I've yet to actually see a warrior outside Nemesis trade with a hunter as some say they can do unless said hunter player is caught off guard or is simply inferior and was outplayed.

My point was as the old saying goes "if its good for the goose its good for the gander" if Warriors need CC in order to make their kit function and you dont have a problem with that then obviously you shouldn't have a problem with giving other roles tools to make up for their deficiency.


Edit: From what I've gathered the main problem is the overusage of Sprint and the base damage values some Warriors have, but in the end I have not seen anything that directly shows gods like Bacchus or Ymir to be completely inferior support wise. IMO people are simply basing it on the tournament or the popular meta preference to trade utility for damage.

the Tournament is the best source of information that is the best time to judge a games balance is when you put the best vs the best. And the reality that came from the tournament is that warriors are out of place and they are too good right now, when you get 5-7 warriors every game pick or banned ..... out of 8. that should tell you something.

HexisCopiae
04-04-2014, 01:20 PM
as i said worst case scenario is you may have to counterbuild in order to make up for the deficiency. but everyone else does so why shouldn't warriors. I am an advocate that Warriors should have no hard CC unless its their ult. And i believe in scaling, odin should not get a 50% slow just because he put one point into a skill (no one should unless its an ult)
I simply cannot see Hercules not having a stun in addition to the knockback for his Driving Strike, nor Wukong's Tiger not have its stun. Since they both rely on their abilities to deal a majority of their dmg, they can't make proper use of most offensive physical items as they're for in-hand Gods like Odin, Vamana, Nemesis or Assassins/Hunters.

Though I completely agree that Odin should get scaling, after all Nemesis and later Ao Kuang both had their static slows changed.



My point was as the old saying goes "if its good for the goose its good for the gander" if Warriors need CC in order to make their kit function and you dont have a problem with that then obviously you shouldn't have a problem with giving other roles tools to make up for their deficiency.
Absolutely, most often give up on the utility guardians like Ymir, Bacchus or Geb can offer in exchange for being able to focus down a mage or Hunter.

I always believed Bacchus to be a good support but his mana issues and his 3 prove to be a huge problem early game. Ymir is quite solid but having no movement or escape hurts far too much. Hades actually works great as a guardian and damage dealer, but in duo lane phase every ADC but AMC can escape after the silence and heal back up via Lifesteal. Athena takes quite some time to build tanky due to taunt allowing autos to hit her, and usually during the team fights a purification bead can ruin her.

Which leaves Geb who can reliably knock up from a distance dealing damage and peeling at the same time, an additional Peel/initiate in his ultimate, and his infamous shield. If they touched up on the other Guardians I firmly believe they would be picked more often.



the Tournament is the best source of information that is the best time to judge a games balance is when you put the best vs the best. And the reality that came from the tournament is that warriors are out of place and they are too good right now, when you get 5-7 warriors every game pick or banned ..... out of 8. that should tell you something.The reality of how often Wukong, Odin, and Guan were chosen just can't be helped, in such a high stakes game you want absolute certainty on who can survive/be the most efficient at almost all times.

With these teams not carelessly allowing their allies to feed and constant rotations, you want to be able to secure as many kills/objectives as possible. Just like when TrixTank stole the Fire Giant from Dignitas which secured their win, only Geb or Bacchus can do something like that.

Edit: Reflecting on it, outside altering their values maybe its the items which are the most critical issues as opposed to the Gods themselves, Sprint being the #1 offender.

Kiaru
04-04-2014, 05:47 PM
1. Nerf base values on warriors. This means full tank builds don't hurt as much.
2. Increase scaling to compensate. This means full damage builds will still hurt, but tank Tyr can't kill you with a 1+2.
This is pretty much the main problem with warriors.


With these teams not carelessly allowing their allies to feed and constant rotations, you want to be able to secure as many kills/objectives as possible. Just like when TrixTank stole the Fire Giant from Dignitas which secured their win, only Geb or Bacchus can do something like that.
He stole it as Guan Yu, did you even watch the tournament? Wukong and Odin are also the best gods at stealing FG/GF.

HexisCopiae
04-04-2014, 07:32 PM
This is pretty much the main problem with warriors.


He stole it as Guan Yu, did you even watch the tournament? Wukong and Odin are also the best gods at stealing FG/GF.
You forgot the paragraph above that lovely section you quoted, let me re-paste it.


The reality of how often Wukong, Odin, and Guan were chosen just can't be helped, in such a high stakes game you want absolute certainty on who can survive/be the most efficient at almost all times.

I'm fully aware TrixTank was a Guan Yu, hence me say only Bacchus or Geb can do something like that.
IE: Get within range and immediately hard CC all of them and safely steal fire giant.

No other guardian can do such, and no Wukong wouldn't have been able to do what he did in the time it took Trix to travel in his ult.